From 8-Bit to 4K Episode 32: WoW, This Episode is Really Long

[00:00:10] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to from 8bit to 4k. I'm your host this week. I'm Mike of many names, of course. I'm joined by my two other co hosts. We have Jack Zoman. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Hi, it's me. [00:00:20] Speaker A: And we have hopefully a little bit recovered over here as well. Pillow Pet. [00:00:25] Speaker B: Lochtar. [00:00:26] Speaker A: That doesn't sound recovered. We also have a. I had a frog in my [00:00:30] Speaker C: throat. [00:00:30] Speaker A: Lochtar [00:00:30] Speaker C: Ogar. How's that? [00:00:32] Speaker A: Better. Zug. [00:00:33] Speaker C: Zug. [00:00:33] Speaker D: That's the worst orc impression I've ever heard in my life. [00:00:36] Speaker B: Loktar. O gar. [00:00:38] Speaker A: Didn't even put it. And you've definitely heard [00:00:42] Speaker D: of Orc. [00:00:43] Speaker A: We have a co host or a guest host, I should say Liv. I do not know if you want anything else besides Liv. [00:00:50] Speaker D: Hi, I Liv of Liv the cyberdoll on video games. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Thank you for joining us for this topic. We got here specifically because of today's topic, which we'll get to in just a moment. First, we have some shout outs to do. So we are shouting out Codex, Ninja, Pillow Pet, Labano, Uncle ChrisCo, and Skippius Esquire. Thank you guys for supporting us at our shoutout tier. That shoutout tier is part of our Patreon. Patreon.com the4worldspodcast. $1 a month tells us you love us. $5 get you some exclusive feeds from behind the scenes stuff. We had a hefty beginning of this one. You can get a little bit more insight into what we're dealing with. And $10 a month will get you that feed and a shout out like we have for Pillow Pet here. All these benefits go both to this podcast as well as for words. Don't forget to join us on our discord, which they. I keep pointing and you can't see the pointing. It'll be in the description below. And plug [00:01:47] Speaker B: the twitches at the top too, since we have a guest. [00:01:49] Speaker A: Oh, may as well plug the twitches. You're right. Jax can be found at Twitch tv. Jacksellman. Pillow can be found at Twitch tv. Pillowpet. I can be found occasionally at Twitch tv. Mug of many names. And Liv can be found at Twitch TV. LiveTheSyberDhole Cyber D hole. [00:02:09] Speaker D: Cyber Dole. [00:02:10] Speaker B: Okay, so Liv, explain to them what a dole is because they [00:02:14] Speaker D: don't know. See, this is why I have an exclamation point. Dole command on my. On my channel. So the dole is a wild dog that exists in Siberia and the Himalayas. It has been my favorite animal since I was a super little kid and when I Was like, you know, getting my vtuber stuff, like, properly set up, like, outside of like my previous branding. I was like, you know what I'm gonna do my favorite animal. Everyone will surely know my favorite animal. No, no. It's a little dog that lives in holes. And apparently Tibetan farmers really hate them. Even though they don't do anything. They just see a dog somewhere near their farm and go, oh, shit. Like, is that where they hire ATF agents? What? [00:03:05] Speaker A: No, we. We have plenty of those people around here. We don't need to go to Siberia for them. But. Okay, well, we'll. We'll bring ourselves back on topic. Not from here. And we do have an interesting topic here and is why Liv is here. It is why you're not going to hear a lot of Jax this episode, at least for a while. Because today, don't [00:03:28] Speaker B: worry, I've got plenty when we get to what we've been playing. [00:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah. But today's main topic, we are discussing wow. Forever. Its release, how we feel, how we play. And Jax is the only one of us who has not touched it. So let's. Let's start off with what everyone is doing, how you're playing, where you're playing, who you're playing. I may as well kick it off. I am doing almost entirely PvE. Just straight PvE, not any RP PvP. I'm probably going to make a PvP character a little bit. And realistically I have like seven character alts, but I have two things I play of mostly I'm playing solo with a mage, and I've gotten to round 22 with it, having a great time playing on the mage. And because a buddy of mine missed the original classic wow, his computer died and then we skyrocketed past him, so he was kind of over from playing. I have a character that is only played with him, so he will always have something that is played with him so he does not have to worry about getting thrown past. And that's a shaman. One of the new Skyborn is my elf. And then the shaman is a dwarf. And fuck is it fun. Hey, Pillow. What are you playing? [00:04:39] Speaker C: I'm on the PVP server because I love PvP and I am a orc warlock named Goal. Dang it, Bobby, [00:04:48] Speaker A: I've [00:04:48] Speaker D: seen you [00:04:49] Speaker C: probably. I talk a lot of shit in trade chat and general chats. And [00:04:54] Speaker A: that's a good [00:04:54] Speaker C: thing. Yeah, I like Barrett's chat. [00:04:56] Speaker B: Is there only one PvP server in WoW forever? [00:04:59] Speaker A: Okay, there's [00:05:00] Speaker C: a PvP in [00:05:01] Speaker D: an [00:05:02] Speaker C: RP PvP, [00:05:03] Speaker A: so what they have done instead for. Instead of doing your standard server lists, they have divided the game into four rule sets. There is PvE, just raw PvE. There is RP PvE, there's PvP and RP PvP. Each of those, [00:05:18] Speaker B: Those all existed when I played. [00:05:20] Speaker A: Each of those has the entirety of the listing in it. There is no servers. No [00:05:24] Speaker D: servers anymore. [00:05:25] Speaker A: That does mean every so often the game will just click and readjust who's where. [00:05:31] Speaker B: Gotcha. There is a [00:05:32] Speaker D: caveat to that though. [00:05:34] Speaker B: So basically all of the old server divisions are now just in the background, hidden away instead of being actual. [00:05:40] Speaker A: Essentially, yes. [00:05:41] Speaker B: Hard restrictions. [00:05:43] Speaker D: Well, [00:05:43] Speaker B: there still obviously must be servers for people on different parts of the world to be able to play the game without horrible latency. [00:05:49] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:49] Speaker D: Yeah. Though those servers will communicate, so you can. Actually, I've run into a couple of Chinese people because I've been playing super, super late. Or I think they're Chinese. I'm not very good at reading the symbols. I'm sorry. [00:06:02] Speaker B: If it's all complicated symbols, it's Chinese. If it's a mixture of complicated and simple symbols, it's Japanese. And if it's a bunch of lines and circles, it's Korean. [00:06:12] Speaker D: Oh, it was Koreans then. Yeah, I always get Chinese and Korean mixed up. I don't remember one of them has like this. The circle is like what your. The shape your mouth is supposed to make. Is that. Is that Korean? [00:06:23] Speaker B: I think that's Korean. [00:06:25] Speaker D: Okay, yeah. But there is like a caveat to it too, because one of the big concerns I saw when they announced it was that people wouldn't be able to make communities because you'd always get shuffled around, you'd never see someone again. If you interact with someone, like join their group, even send them a whisper, do them a trade, basically any sort of like player to player interaction, you get added to each other's like this hidden list of recent players and the game will constantly try and put people that are on each other's recent players lists together, which then you're then meeting people from their recent players lists. So you'll start seeing the same people around. And I've basically leveled my character from Tirisfal Glades all the way up to thousand needles. And I'm still seeing the same people around every now and again. [00:07:16] Speaker B: That's genuinely cool. [00:07:18] Speaker A: The behind the scenes server stuff is incredibly cool. They did a big talk about that as their last podcast. Because while forever I want to podcast, [00:07:26] Speaker C: I want to jump in here before we move on from this. The smoothest launch of any World of Warcraft [00:07:32] Speaker A: by [00:07:33] Speaker C: anything [00:07:34] Speaker D: I've [00:07:35] Speaker C: ever dealt with. There is one little hiccup when logging in, initially for the first 10 minutes, and that's where I got hit with a queue. Then after that, I never had any server issues. Personally, I've never had any server lag. This has been the best launch of a game I know. Tears Fall. Glades ran into its share of issues because everybody and their brother wanted to be undead. Best race. I mean, that's why. [00:08:02] Speaker D: I mean, they got Paladins. Now there's no reason to play an alliance character. [00:08:06] Speaker A: There's no reason at all to play [00:08:07] Speaker C: ever [00:08:08] Speaker A: anything on the Horde. But I'll explain that later. We'll. We'll yell at each other in a minute. [00:08:14] Speaker C: I. I want to know your best names that you've picked and that you've seen. Just a couple, because, Jax, I don't know if you know it. You get a first name and a last name. Now. [00:08:24] Speaker D: They finally added surnames, so you can actually make your fucking character name [00:08:28] Speaker B: beautiful. I always wanted that. [00:08:31] Speaker D: Yeah, I mean, my character, my main character's name, it's literally just my first name and then like a. Basically a slightly modified name of the. My first paladin's name when I was, like, nine. I'm not gonna say what it is. But then I got really high on launch night as I was logging off, and right before I logged off, I made a dwarf priest called I need a Motrin. [00:08:56] Speaker B: Liv, you just did so much psychic damage to me that you had a character in World of Warcraft when you were nine years old. I was already out of high school by the time World of Warcraft existed. [00:09:05] Speaker A: I also was in high school when wow Launched. [00:09:10] Speaker D: I am sorry. I had just moved to the United States, and, like, I. I saw the free trial, like, just whatever it was, like, you know, [00:09:23] Speaker A: at least. Yeah. [00:09:24] Speaker D: Vanilla. Yeah. [00:09:24] Speaker A: This is [00:09:25] Speaker D: 2004. [00:09:27] Speaker A: You're not. You're not as child young as some other people we talked with. [00:09:31] Speaker D: Yeah, no, like, I. I literally, like, just, like, I'm gonna turn these up so I don't hear my parents screaming in the other room and. All right, this is my safe place now. Like an abused housewife, [00:09:45] Speaker C: I have a name that's already been reported or not even reported flagged before I even got to me. I made the character. Never went into the world, and it's already been flagged. It was a warrior that was named Clap Dim Cheeks. And I [00:09:58] Speaker D: have so seen worse. [00:10:01] Speaker C: I know, but mine's. They already flagged it. And then my rogue that I made because back shots was taken and is backsplats, [00:10:10] Speaker D: but [00:10:11] Speaker C: that hasn't [00:10:11] Speaker D: been [00:10:11] Speaker C: flagged yet. So, [00:10:13] Speaker D: like, I literally saw someone earlier called Bikestealer Naga. [00:10:19] Speaker B: Oh, my God. [00:10:20] Speaker D: For those of you that remember, like, I think it was on [00:10:24] Speaker B: Burning Crusade. The slave pens. Is that what you're referring to? [00:10:28] Speaker D: No, no, no, no. Okay. So in on the. I think this was in Wrath, like, I was on like galakrond us and there was a guild that was actually fairly decent called Naga stole my bike. [00:10:41] Speaker B: Oh [00:10:41] Speaker A: my God, I remember [00:10:43] Speaker C: that. [00:10:43] Speaker D: So, like, I saw that and I'm just like. And I'm just like, oh. So he's probably one of them. [00:10:48] Speaker A: Or at least like, he was aware of [00:10:49] Speaker D: them. [00:10:51] Speaker A: We get some supernos. All of my characters are either referenced to my original characters or I choose a theme almost all the time. So this time they're references to characters from Revlon 5. I just yoinked a bunch of names. [00:11:03] Speaker D: Yeah, no, I. I mostly just went with like, in universe names. [00:11:08] Speaker A: Minor silliest [00:11:09] Speaker C: shit. [00:11:10] Speaker A: Yeah, I have a bunch of things that are references to my original characters. And if I haven't had one of those, it's one of the others. Liv, you did not. Oh, yeah. I never said. No, I [00:11:19] Speaker D: did not. Yeah. I am playing an undead paladin. I. I've been really enjoying it so far. Like, I've. My guild decided that they were going to all play on the PvE rule set. So that's where I'm at. And I'm glad to be kind of. Kind of would have liked to be on an RP server because apparently, like, the classic RP servers are pretty, like, pretty good. [00:11:41] Speaker A: I can always just make an old. I've heard they've been like, so part of one of the things that has created this. So we're going to talk about one of the things that they've done now. Bouncing into impressions from here. One of the mechanics that they've added into Forever that is a fantastic thing is these things which are essentially group campfires. And group campfires are just these things that people put down and you have to. You have to sit at them for a full minute to get the buff. But they replicate ever so slightly weaker versions of class buffs. So you can get a kings, you can get an int, you can get a fort, etc, they are made from professions. So there's another reason to push professions forward. And it's forced people interaction. So you have to sit down and sit there for a full minute. And I have Heard that every RP server, when people sit down at those, you just get conversations happening as opposed to a bunch of people just sitting around waiting. And that is one of the reasons I'm. I also wish I had done an RP for that. I didn't because I figured that there'd be less people on an RP than there would be on a PvE. And it's been so interesting. [00:12:46] Speaker D: I really want to try it, but apparently the like switching rule sets has been disabled. [00:12:51] Speaker A: Yeah, they do not want to destabilize. Faction balance is. One of the big things is when people start doing transfers on those, they have real problems. No, no, no. I don't mean [00:13:02] Speaker D: transfers. I mean like going to the rule set list. [00:13:05] Speaker A: Oh, so you're not allowed [00:13:07] Speaker B: to go and make it a character in a different rule set? [00:13:09] Speaker D: No, I just logged on just now to like double check and. Yeah, no, it throws me an error. Like I said. Apparently that's been disabled for the opening week. So people can I. I think it's for. People don't just like, go on to [00:13:23] Speaker A: slam a bunch on every server, find out one person, then switch to servers a bunch until they find what they want. Yeah, I understand. [00:13:29] Speaker B: That makes sense for launch week. [00:13:31] Speaker A: It might last. [00:13:32] Speaker B: Hopefully that restriction [00:13:33] Speaker A: gets [00:13:33] Speaker B: lifted soon. [00:13:35] Speaker D: Cross rule set grouping would be nice if they can do that though, because, man, I do kind of [00:13:39] Speaker A: want to do. You cannot do that between PvE and PvP. It would have to be through the RP to PvE and the PvP sets. [00:13:45] Speaker D: It'd be RP and PvE at least. Like, [00:13:48] Speaker B: there's no reason you can't do that for like, dungeons and stuff. [00:13:51] Speaker A: They do not want. For very specific reasons. They have a bunch of things that they talked about. And I [00:13:58] Speaker D: mean, I'm just being selfish because, like, I want to be able to be on an RP server and actually be able to play with my guild. That's my. I'm just being selfish on that one [00:14:05] Speaker A: a bit. But like, it's especially prevalent with how they want PvP things to work. No, you can make a character on them. I don't. You may have a problem with your location. I can switch rule sets right now. [00:14:15] Speaker D: Oh, okay. Maybe it's. Maybe it's. Maybe it's a regional thing. I don't know. Yeah, it just says no realms available. [00:14:22] Speaker A: Did you specifically grab PvP? [00:14:25] Speaker D: No, I'm on the PvE realm. [00:14:26] Speaker A: Okay. [00:14:27] Speaker D: I'm trying to open up the ruleset selector to go to look at arc. Oh, [00:14:31] Speaker A: it did not have a problem. With me doing that. So [00:14:34] Speaker D: maybe it is. Maybe it is regional. I don't know. [00:14:37] Speaker A: But yeah. So that's a bit of how they've divided things. We're going to start back with you, Liv. How have your initial impressions with this been? [00:14:46] Speaker D: This is what I thought the game looked like [00:14:48] Speaker A: way [00:14:49] Speaker D: back in 2004. [00:14:50] Speaker A: I guess we have to explain that they have updated the graphics a lot. Even though they have the classic art style. You can choose to do things completely, like original graphic things. But they rebuilt literally the entire engine with the modern workings and then imported a bunch of old assets into something else to make them work in the new modern system. Unlike with [00:15:09] Speaker D: the [00:15:10] Speaker A: classic, [00:15:11] Speaker D: they've also got new, new water graphics. And like, like, the water has physics, [00:15:17] Speaker C: which [00:15:17] Speaker D: is why. [00:15:18] Speaker C: So good. [00:15:19] Speaker A: The weather [00:15:19] Speaker D: effects [00:15:20] Speaker A: are amazing. [00:15:21] Speaker D: Yeah. Like, the new weathers, like, I was in Hillsbrad foothills, like, earlier today, and, like, a thunderstorm kicked off and it was so good. Like, rain is very good at putting me to sleep. I like, I was like. As I sit here, like, dozing off because I'm just, like, kind of sitting at a campfire, right? Like, in town, right. And I'm just hearing, like, this rain come down. I'm just, like, leaning back in my chair waiting for the buff, and I'm like, oh, man, I can just fall asleep. [00:15:46] Speaker A: The blizzard storms, the snowstorms, amazing. [00:15:50] Speaker D: When you go up to Ulterac, that's so [00:15:51] Speaker A: good. It was insane. [00:15:54] Speaker D: I hope so much that. Because it's very clear that as they go with this horizontal progression that they're going to probably, like, release, like, extra shit later on. I hope we get, like, the alternate universe wrath, the Lich King example equivalent, because I want to see howling fjord like this. I want to see grizzly hills. I want to see, like, Frost Crown or Icecrown. Sorry. [00:16:18] Speaker A: I think we'll get to more of that when we come to our final portion of the topic. So we'll bounce off of you. You've had a pretty good solo launch. Hey, Pillow, how have your initial impressions been? [00:16:28] Speaker C: I've been really enjoying. Feels like classic. With the upgraded models, which I love the HD models. The weather has been great. I was in ratchet fishing and I went from calm water to rough water, like huge waves. It was awesome. [00:16:47] Speaker A: Oh, I [00:16:47] Speaker C: have not seen it. Like, it blew my [00:16:48] Speaker A: mind. [00:16:49] Speaker C: It blew my mind. It was huge waves. You can see. The water is the best part for me because you can see, like, the way the streams are moving. I'm fishing in hills, Brad, right now, or I was before Pod started and you can see like the. The stream move in particular ways and it's awesome. The darkness is like that spongebob episode where it's advanced darkness. You cannot see unless you're near a fire. Like when it's dark outside, it's dark in your game. [00:17:19] Speaker A: So well done. Light is. I [00:17:21] Speaker D: am so. I'm actually surprised I've not added like torches. Like consumer torches. Huh. [00:17:30] Speaker C: I think you got to go to Dusk Squad to get one. [00:17:32] Speaker D: Oh, I have a horde. I can't go there. [00:17:36] Speaker C: But horde can go there. I saw a tour. [00:17:38] Speaker D: I don't think there'll be a quest though, would there? [00:17:40] Speaker C: No. Horde can go to the Duskwood and get them as well. [00:17:42] Speaker A: It's interesting. [00:17:44] Speaker C: Druid cat form holds it in their mouth. [00:17:47] Speaker A: Yeah, [00:17:47] Speaker D: that's amazing. [00:17:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's been amazing. [00:17:52] Speaker C: I saw a clip of someone in Dun Morrow with the Blizzard and like you can't see? [00:17:58] Speaker A: No, [00:17:58] Speaker C: it was literally white out conditions you cannot see. [00:18:01] Speaker A: I can give [00:18:01] Speaker D: you [00:18:02] Speaker A: an example of it you can use. [00:18:03] Speaker D: Can I just real quick. Sorry, real quick. This torch is fucking ridiculous because. So not only do you need to go to Duskwood, but the guy that drops it only spawns after 8:00 clock server time in the. In the night. At night. And he will. And he will stop spawning at 6am server time. [00:18:28] Speaker A: He only spawns to show it during the night because that's the only time he uses it. [00:18:32] Speaker D: Oh God. [00:18:33] Speaker A: It's pretty great. [00:18:33] Speaker C: So I. I'm enjoying the added extra quests. There's a lot more content especially in like the starter zones. So for me I'm in Durotar as an orc. They've added a whole new area with different mobs that spawn. Like there's spiders, there's more elites that like in the starter zone now that drop like quest breadcrumbs, items that start quests. The expansion of professions is so much better. Fishing feels way better and I've talked about fishing already three times. I love to fish in this game. Like I. I am obsessed with fishing on World Warcraft. [00:19:14] Speaker A: How different is it than. Than basic fishing and regular? [00:19:18] Speaker C: It's a lot easier to like visually it's a lot better because you got the upgraded fishing spots and you get more like more drops as far as not necessarily more fish drop. I think you can get some perks later in the legacy system that does that. [00:19:37] Speaker D: Which we need to talk about the legacy system. [00:19:39] Speaker A: We'll talk about that in a minute. Speaking of fishing, [00:19:41] Speaker C: I found [00:19:41] Speaker A: an interesting fun thing. This. This may have been Brought up by somebody else at something else. There is a way to get a bonus as a bear to use a. To to automatically start fishing while you hit things. And then you can get fishing bonuses while this. So you can be a bear catching salmon just in the rivers. [00:20:00] Speaker C: That's amazing. [00:20:01] Speaker D: Oh God. It brought planes running back for Toru. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Oh, [00:20:06] Speaker C: the plane running is insane. It's absolutely. I'm jealous every time a torrent runs by me at mach 60 just blows right on past me. [00:20:17] Speaker D: Caps at 60 though. Unless it upgrades once you hit level 60. [00:20:20] Speaker C: Yeah, it's only 60. It's 60. It's 60. [00:20:24] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:20:25] Speaker A: It's not mount speed. It's not 60. It should be 40. [00:20:28] Speaker C: You know it is 60. You get 30 stacks at 2% per stack. [00:20:32] Speaker A: Then they changed it. It was. [00:20:33] Speaker C: Listen, as a. It was 30 as a horde player. Mike, respectfully, step off. [00:20:41] Speaker A: I've. I have been in barrens messing around with. So I saw them running by. [00:20:46] Speaker C: No, it's 60. It was 30 in beta and they increased it up to 60. [00:20:50] Speaker D: Yeah, in. In the original instance of planes running like it was supposed to scale with mount skill like but before they removed it in WoW's beta, like the original wow beta. Like, I kind. Like I don't think anyone's unlocked epic writing yet, but I do kind of hope that planes running scales up otherwise like it's a bit shit [00:21:10] Speaker A: maybe because there's only like three people who have hit level 60 total. There's not many, but they might just not have the money yet because when you power level you don't exactly have the money for things. So I may as well get into my first impressions, which in much the same way of theirs, mostly pretty much fucking glowing. Um, it's been really fucking fun. I've done. I've done the new dungeon for alliance and the dwarf side the hall of fame. That's fantastic. I've gone redone Deadmines again. That was fun. People still did things. A bunch of world questing. Not world questing. Dungeon quests feel good to do. They feel rewarding to do. And they are like half the XP you get. So you don't see people constantly spamming one dungeon over and over and over and over again just to do level ups. And it's. It's probably better that way. You go in if you want some stuff because dungeons just have better gear. I don't know if either of you have done the sleeping bag quest. [00:22:04] Speaker D: The what? No. The what? The [00:22:07] Speaker A: sleeping bag quest. [00:22:08] Speaker D: No, [00:22:08] Speaker A: there is a sleeping bag quest that is Both alliance and horde, both. Both sides can get it. And it sends you around the fucking world. I went from Westfall down into the Barrens, up into Stonetalon Mountains, down over it in Loch Medan, and then way up into Alterc Valley. [00:22:23] Speaker D: Jesus. [00:22:24] Speaker C: Now, the sleeping bag itself isn't the best reward. It's the puffs that you get with it. [00:22:29] Speaker A: It's okay. Yeah. So it's like two gold worth of stuff that you get from it. So it's like a decent chunk of money. And then the sleeping bag itself is a you sit. Instead of doing just one minute when you'd ever use it, it's every minute stacking three times. A 1% XP bonus, just 1%. But that bonus lasts through death, so you don't have to try and reapply it. [00:22:51] Speaker D: Okay, [00:22:52] Speaker A: so like it, it's not the best, but anybody in your group can benefit from your sleeping bag. So only one person needs to get it. [00:23:01] Speaker C: If you're gonna go afk. It's good to go ahead and get the buff, but it's not worth sitting for three minutes. But like I said, the puffs that come with it I think give you a half bar of rested xp. [00:23:12] Speaker A: Oh, you get so many fucking things when you wander through that. [00:23:17] Speaker C: The meta plan for it is when you get 55, you use all your puffs. So you got rested all the way to 60. [00:23:23] Speaker D: Yeah. Because that's about when Classic started running out of quests, if I remember right. [00:23:28] Speaker A: So on that point, with these first impressions, let me give a brief example of why wow. Forever is a little bit different than Classic. Not only we've talked about there being a bunch more quests, they added a thousand quests across the game. There are five new zones just straight up new zones that did not exist before. They've revamped every single zone slightly. They've reworked all the stuff. So even in places that you've been to a hundred times, there's new stuff. There was a new quest in Deadmines that I did not ever do before. I've been going there for 22 years. Didn't exist before Thursday. One, two. Blow up a bunch of dynamite in there that did not exist before. Because this lady in Sentinel Hill is convinced that that's probably Cookie has been infecting the wildlife and poisoning the ground. So she sends you in to blow it up. [00:24:22] Speaker D: I can't believe Cookie was the real villain the entire time. [00:24:26] Speaker A: Cookie and her mallet. There's a at least nine new dungeons across the entire game. They've added A raid that does not exist yet because no one can do it. But like, they've added a new final level zone. They've added a bunch of other things. There's a lot of extra content. [00:24:44] Speaker D: They added a new city for Alliance. [00:24:48] Speaker A: Yeah. Dalaran is unbroken. It's been recreated. But it is not exactly the Dalaran that you would have had in Wrath or Legion. It's. It's stuck on the ground. [00:25:01] Speaker D: They killed. They killed me on site. [00:25:03] Speaker A: It's stuck on the ground. [00:25:04] Speaker D: Fucking racist, racist wizards. [00:25:06] Speaker A: It's Alliance. Get fucked. Unless you are one of the Skyborn, in which case you are. No, you are not allowed to go to that one. Never mind. Hold on. One of the new, like the new races has their own starting zone, which is a giant like, own area. I'm assuming neither of you have done Skyborne at all. [00:25:23] Speaker D: I have not. Like, is. Are they any. Like, is it. Is this. Is it any good? Because like, I just saw it and I was like, oh, it's. It's Blood Elves again. [00:25:31] Speaker A: It's [00:25:32] Speaker D: bad. [00:25:33] Speaker A: Um, I hit 14 just doing that zone. They have a capital city there that is garbage because it's the worst laid out city I've ever fucking seen. [00:25:43] Speaker D: Ah, there's the retail. Well, there's where it was hiding. [00:25:46] Speaker A: No, no. Valinor is terribly laid out, but there's a bunch of references to things from later expansions in that place. So like the Drake of the East Wind is in there as just a world boss with 3 million health sitting up in a corner. You're talking about a bunch of people talking about Alakir, who you never heard talked about once until Kata. So this is like. [00:26:09] Speaker D: No, because he was in some of the books. He was in some of the books. He [00:26:12] Speaker A: was in some of the books. Okay. So there's a bunch of stuff that's just like references to other parts in the game. And because they have decided to do this progression horizontally instead of vertically, we're not getting expansions to expand the level on forever. They have a chance of doing things that they just scrapped before and now they're trying to rework and put back in. So like Mount Hyjal just exists now. You can go to the World Tree and go there. That's a full zone that exists. It's not a cataclysm zone like it was there. It's a classic version. You can see the bones of Archimonde there. It's got a lot of. [00:26:49] Speaker D: I. I am very nervous about like some of the new zones because, like, I've not Been there yet? Like, I am only level 27. I am at the point where I just need to do some dungeons to get up to level 30 so I can actually keep going. Like, I've run out of quests, you know, which once again, amazed. That is a thing that can happen. Because, like, [00:27:10] Speaker A: have you done both Kalimdor and Eastern Kingdoms for the same zap? [00:27:15] Speaker D: I have not. But, like, also, like, I know that, like, because I have. Because I want to also, like, go through the dungeons because, like, I. One, I'm a tank and two, like, I just like the old dungeon. So I want to do them, like, while I have the level for them. Like, if I still don't have enough levels, then, yeah, I will probably, like, quest around the barrens for a bit. But [00:27:33] Speaker A: submit 27, you're in Stonetown Mountains. [00:27:36] Speaker D: Yeah. Like, the main thing that has me worried is that, like, I don't know if they have the source still because, like, there is not a single, like, walkable zone, for lack of a better term, like, in retail. Like, after they added flying to the regular world, like, they like. And then once they added dragon flying and they basically, like, was like, ah, it. You don't have to earn flying in the new thing. You can just do it after. After, like, you finish the intro quests. Like, Silver Moon is like, like, so Eversong is like, probably like the only zone that's like halfway decent to walk around in. Because, I mean, they're basically using like the BC.1, they're using the. Yeah, they're using the BC version as like, the blueprint. But like, Zuleman, Harandar, Voidstorm, all of them. Like, it is like, borderline impossible to, like. Like, if I want to just run around on my ground mount, I can't because, like, I'll reach like a pit or like, something where it's like, oh, for fuck's sake. Like, it just. It feels like Blizzard just went like, with the, like, topography tool and was like, I'll just throw fucking hills in, it'll be fine. And then, like, they just got points of interest with nothing in between. And like, I'm really anxious because so far everything looks good, but also so far everything I've seen has been stuff that has already been designed before the brain poison of flying came in. I hope they never add flying because flying, like, actually ruins their [00:29:05] Speaker A: ability to explore the game. We will never get to the point where flying as exists. That was one of their original statements. We will see if that continues. The first new zone, I think, will start at 35. So that'll be when you get to do its test. [00:29:18] Speaker D: Okay, [00:29:19] Speaker A: that's the wetlands. It's east of. [00:29:23] Speaker D: I know where the wetlands. Yeah, I know where the wetlands are. Yeah. No, [00:29:27] Speaker A: it's Redridge. [00:29:29] Speaker D: Oh, Redridge. [00:29:31] Speaker A: The only zone I have to do any reference would be the new starting zone. And it is designed for a Skyborg. So there is very clearly. The path is pretty good. The movement's pretty natural to go around. And as you're moving forward and back, you are finding cliffs to jump off of because you have a slow fall that allow you to just drift forward. So, like, it's. It's designed with the class in mind or the race in mind, and it has flowed pretty good so far. That's my only reference point for a new zone. It's been pretty good. [00:30:04] Speaker D: That's taken a little bit of the worry away, but [00:30:07] Speaker A: okay. [00:30:09] Speaker D: I hate flying. I hate flying so much. [00:30:12] Speaker A: It's very fun. It makes things. It. It makes you lose an investment. So one of the things that I've had to do a bunch with. With that, I'll talk about the. The one quest to go with the sleeping bag. I spent two hours just running around the world on that quest. I went from Westfall up into Stormwind, took a boat over to Aberdeen, ran my ass down to the barrens, through three fucking zones, intentionally killed myself because there are less graveyards so that I could forcibly revive myself in the graveyard, Got res sickness, and then still didn't make it there when the res sickness wore off 10 minutes later. [00:30:51] Speaker C: Did you ever play Season of Discovery? [00:30:53] Speaker A: Not that one. [00:30:55] Speaker C: The sleeping bag quest. The exact same step for step as in came in Season of Discovery. So they kept that. So I'm glad to hear that. [00:31:03] Speaker D: That's cool. [00:31:04] Speaker A: There's a bunch of shit that they've taken from Season of Discovery and a couple of the things like that, they've added skills across the board. Like I'm playing mage's arcane. Arcane blast was taken from later expansions of wow. There's a new spell called Arcane wrath that's not gonna come till 25 for me. I know Frostfire bolt is back, but it plays differently. I know you as a Paladin, you have a new holy strike ability as of right? [00:31:26] Speaker D: Yeah. That was removed content actually in vanilla that they've like before vanilla released in the beta, and then they took it out for some reason, which left Paladin really, really unfinished. Like, Paladin has a new seal that is a taunt. So Paladin Tanks finally have a taunt tank. Paladins have a talent that gives them a second judgment on a one minute cooldown. So Paladins, if you have that seal up, you can do two taunts when previously Paladins literally were not taken as tanks because they didn't have a taunt period. And it's still very, very similar to what I remember Paladin being, but with enough of the gaps filled in that Paladin feels a lot more complete. But let's get like I've still got like 33 more levels to go. [00:32:26] Speaker A: I [00:32:26] Speaker D: don't know. [00:32:26] Speaker A: They also like they were. They did not feel beholden to the old talent trees. They took consecrate from the holy tree and made it baseline for all paladins. [00:32:34] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:32:34] Speaker A: Like they, they do not feel that they need to do things like they did in classic. Well, this is what you had. This is what you're getting. No, they feel like, hey, if you feel things are off, give feedback. They've already changed a couple classes a few times because things have been either feeling off like with warrior rage just not being a thing, having really bad problems getting rage. So they changed a bunch of talents in there. Changed a bunch of how rage generation actively works. They've given more spells out to people. They've made classes feel not to the extent that modern wow feels somewhere around the time of B.C. is where classes feel, [00:33:11] Speaker D: which is. I would argue that that is where most classes are like were at their best design wise and like, like wrath maybe at a stretch. And then like, like afterwards like they like modern day Paladin is unrecognizable [00:33:26] Speaker A: completely. [00:33:27] Speaker D: It. Yeah. The only thing I would say about Paladin is this, this taunt on the seal system. I understand where they're going with it, but I worry that when raids open up, we might run into an issue because we still don't have a traditional taunt. And I, I get it. Like, like Paladins, they put seals on to do different things and you want to be switching seals like you've got your damage increase seal, you've got the seal that heals you, you've got etc. Etc. [00:33:54] Speaker A: So did you do raid Vanilla? [00:33:56] Speaker D: I did not on my paladin though, because I did not want to heal as my paladin, so. And also like I didn't want to have a second guild on on alliance, so. But I did raid as a shaman. [00:34:08] Speaker A: So if I remember correctly from Vanilla, you had your, your main tank for like when trash mobs were around, grab up most things and then anything that was grabbed off because you still always had an off tank and that was their job. [00:34:20] Speaker D: You had like, my. My guild had three tanks. [00:34:23] Speaker A: So I think realistically, most raids that aren't even. Even the 10 men, you're gonna have two tanks. [00:34:29] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:34:29] Speaker A: But, like, for 20 man or 40 man, you'll have three, four. Sometimes one of those tanks seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to have as a paladin. And that's going to be. They're not going to be the one who does triage taunting. That's going to be your. Your warriors, your druids. Because they both [00:34:42] Speaker D: probably. Yeah. [00:34:43] Speaker A: Baseline taunts. And they are bringing reasons to bring in all of the classes because they all have very, very specific things that they do that other. [00:34:54] Speaker D: Yeah, the thing that I would say, like, like. Like, even if, like, we wanted to keep it, like, with the. Like I said, the seals being your taunts and, like, each seal being a utility. That is very, very interesting. I like that idea. Like, I do want to see how it goes out. However, there was one, I think it was in B.C. i might be wrong. It might have been wrath. You know how paladin has, like, hand of freedom, hand of protection, etc. Right. The hand spells. There was a hand that. I think it was hand of righteousness, question mark, where you would cast it on a player, and if they had aggro, all aggro on them would redirect to the paladin for I think it was like five to 10 seconds. [00:35:37] Speaker A: That sounds like a wrath spell. And it's basically misdirect. But the paladin gets to cast it themselves. [00:35:43] Speaker D: Yeah. And they cast it reactively instead of proactively. I would say that that one might be a good spell for them to bring in, if only. So paladin has some sort of mass taunt. Because I know warrior has one. [00:36:00] Speaker A: Druid does not [00:36:01] Speaker D: a druid friend. Druid does not. [00:36:03] Speaker A: Does not have a masthalt. [00:36:04] Speaker D: Okay. I thought the druid got enraging. Sorry. Go ahead. [00:36:09] Speaker A: Druid should have just. Really good. Now I might as well take it. No, I can't take a look. I remember [00:36:14] Speaker D: a friend. Yeah, I remember a friend was saying that druids had really good aoe. AOE threat. So I just assumed that they got enraging. Roar [00:36:22] Speaker A: again. They have, like, AOE damage out the ass is one of the reasons why. [00:36:27] Speaker D: Okay, so that's where it's coming from. Yeah. [00:36:29] Speaker A: You are swiping, I think thrash. So, like, druid very good at maintaining AoE damage Palance might be there because of how consecrate works, because of how a couple other things work. They're going to have steady, consistent, like, second tier. As long as people aren't doing heavy AOE and you're doing priority targeting. I think Paladin's gonna be amazing at that. [00:36:49] Speaker D: Yeah, that's. That's basically been my experience so far. Like, Like I said, like, like, like the. The changes with the seals being taunts. It's not bad. But I have noticed that, like, especially retribution paladins, for some reason, like, it is very easy for them to pull off of me. And I don't know if that is just, like, randoms, like, coming from, like, the. The. The group listings. Like, they're not watching their threat or like. Or. Or is that something? [00:37:18] Speaker A: But, like, also a lot of people. [00:37:20] Speaker D: Yeah, like, because it's only them. It's only retribution paladins. Like, I. Like, I. I was, like, based on my memories, right from, like, hearing my. My tax, like, bitch and moan, like, back in the day. Like, it was. I was like, okay, rogues are going to be the issue. Never had an issue with a rogue. Every single one of them has been, like, spot on with their. With their threat. So, like, which surprised the shit out of me because, like, rogues used to be, like, the number one person is like, ah, groin's dead. Fuck. Like, he. He pulled aggro. And then we got Onyxia tail swiping. Oh, [00:37:52] Speaker A: they did [00:37:53] Speaker D: end [00:37:53] Speaker A: challenging roar. [00:37:54] Speaker D: They did. Okay. Yeah. So warriors got their. Their thing. Druids have challenging role. I feel like. I feel like Paladins should have that old hand spell again, if only so that we have, like, AOE threat for paladins, too. But that's just me. That's just me, like, on my paladin soapbox. Because I'm gonna be running. I'm gonna be basically doing the opposite of what I did when I was a kid. Instead of raiding on my shaman, I'm gonna be raiding on my paladin as a prop paladin. So that's. That's. That's. That's. My only concern is. Is the lack of a AOE taunt. Sorry, I'll. [00:38:30] Speaker A: You're good. [00:38:31] Speaker D: Resign the [00:38:32] Speaker A: pillow. Do you have any more to add before we. We start into our next half of the topic? [00:38:36] Speaker C: Nope. I think I'm good. [00:38:38] Speaker A: All right, then I guess we'll switch over and talk about what our goals for the game are. Like, where do we plan on going with this? So I started this time. So we'll have pillow. Where do you feel like you want to go with wow forever? [00:38:53] Speaker C: I want to just be a casual dad and raid when I have time and play when I have time in a world that's not going to surpass me. If I got to stop playing for a week or two. That's like my biggest problem I've had with retail ever since Legion is my life got busy and if I stop playing for a week or two after Legion, you're out. Like it felt like you were out and you're left behind and now you're super far behind in your gear. And I know there's catch up mechanics, but it just doesn't feel right in retail. And I'm hoping with Forever since it's horizontal progression that if I log off for two weeks because I got to work, that when I log back on, my raid gear that I currently have is still going to be good because I'm still in level 60 gear and it might. And it's not going to be like I'm a whole raid tier behind because relevancy and vanilla gear is a lot more than what it is in retail. Whereas like, I know, I think after Legion they took it away when they started doing like the seasons and stuff. Your previous season, Ray tier becomes like useless. But in retail you have something that might be best in slot from Gnomergan for like Druids, you know, [00:40:12] Speaker D: I mean in classic you do [00:40:15] Speaker C: or I'm sorry, in classic, like gnomeregan, like the crowd pummeler was a Druid's best in slot for raiding [00:40:22] Speaker A: literally the entire game. And thank God they fucking took that away. [00:40:24] Speaker D: Oh, I mean, don't forget the edgemaster's gloves. Like if you're playing a human like you put those on, they're level 40 blues from sunken Temple. [00:40:33] Speaker A: There are a lot of things, but having your entire class only function because of one item from a raid 30 levels ago. [00:40:41] Speaker C: Well, what I'm saying is like, even in like tvc, there is some like trinkets and stuff that were still best in slot in tvc. Like I. I like gear being relevant through an entire game and not just be like, all right, well new season's out. Let me go redo all of my gear and re enchant it and redo all this. Like I want want it to feel like I want to feel relevant the whole time. So I'm excited to hope that they keep that relevancy and gearing in there and we'll get more into it where on our Next topic, what I want to talk about. But my goal is just to be a casual dad rating, having fun. [00:41:24] Speaker A: You're likely to be able to. You are very likely to be able to fulfill your goal. I. I do not see. I've already [00:41:30] Speaker C: fulfilled [00:41:30] Speaker A: it. Yeah. I don't see you having major issues. I am not feeling rushed to level up to max level, which is one of the big problems with current generation with mothmodern. Wow, Liv. What are your goals? [00:41:43] Speaker D: So I'm gonna be more of a casual raider. Like. Like when I was a little kid, like, I was really hardcore about it in the way that only a little kid could. And like, I don't have the energy for that anymore. And like, I'm assuming that like. Like all the old raids are gonna come back. I'm looking to do those with my guild. I wanna. I wanna finally be able to have a paladin that functions. Because it just didn't back then because I didn't want to heal on it. I. The thing, what you said about like, gear not being obsolete. I am really interested in seeing, like, where things go. Especially since not only do we have things not being obsoleted immediately. I mean, I remember back in. Back when DC came out, I had a friend who had Sulfurous, right. The. The Hammer from Ragnaros. And I remember he was using that thing like all the way. I don't think he got an upgrade for it, but like, he was like. Like, he was like, oh, this is worth switching. Until the one with Lady Vash. [00:42:45] Speaker C: Serpent Shrine Cavern. [00:42:47] Speaker D: Yeah, it wasn't until we got to like, like that. Like halfway through that raid that, like, he. That he finally got like a weapon. He's like, okay, yeah, no, I can switch this and sleep like. Like you. You actually had like this. He's. He's the guy that's got soul Furious. Like, that's. That's. That's his whole thing. And like. Like it stayed like his thing until like. Like halfway through. Was it this? What was that, like, the second raid? I don't remember. [00:43:11] Speaker C: Second. I think [00:43:12] Speaker D: second [00:43:12] Speaker C: rate too. I think it was Karazhan. And then it came Karazhan Gruul's Laird [00:43:19] Speaker D: Necktheridon. And then. Yeah. And then Serpent Shrine was after that. [00:43:23] Speaker A: Serpentine. And the [00:43:26] Speaker C: temple or the Tempest. Tempest. [00:43:29] Speaker A: Tempest Keep. That's it. Yeah, that's a. That's about where I think I want to land as a. Because I do relatively hardcore running, I'm in mid mythic right now in current things. I'm not the most hardcore readers. I'M not pushing world firsts, not at all. But I am someone who expects to be running Mythics every tier. I'm, I'm expecting to go at least most of the raid, if not into completing ahead of the curve. That's, that's ahead of the [00:43:57] Speaker D: Cubs generally where I aim to [00:43:59] Speaker A: like. I expect to get the Mythic ahead of the curve about half of the time because our Raiders are good at the game but they aren't incredibly serious about pushing. So we don't generally speaking try and shove to try and get it every time if they haven't done a bunch of stuff to it. If it's still way into the complex mechanics, we don't generally speaking go too far into trying to push it. But we'll, we'll work on through Mythic most of the way and I do not want to do that level of commitment in forever. Right now I can't do both. I can't do four hours a night, two nights a week and also do four hours a night, two nights a week or, or even one night a week guaranteed on another game. That's too much commitment. So like occasionally going, hey, I'm gonna spend another five hours tonight playing this one. Raid 3, let's go. I can do that. And that's gonna be like a casual raid. I love it. I love the long form dungeons that you get. The multi like Deadminds takes an hour and a half just to run it. You have multiple dungeons that will take four or five hours because they're mega in size, their scope is huge and I like that. But I don't want that to be a forced commitment again. So I'm with you and I'm going to be in the casual aspect of that, but I want to see every ounce of the content in this game. [00:45:19] Speaker D: Yeah. Except the PvP. Like they can keep those new battlegrounds if they got any, like keep that shit away from me. [00:45:25] Speaker A: I might try it. I'm not committed against PvP. Like, I'm not as much into it as Billow is. I'm not. I got soured to world pvp by I still remember the fucking name of the rogue. It was, it was, it was a rogue in B.C. called Paulina who hunted me down in Nagrand over and over again through the city because you could not escape. You could be in the city. Nope. She'd come in and kill you and then jump off the fucking tower and then the guards wouldn't follow her. Fucking vanish. I remember. [00:45:58] Speaker D: God. Have you, have you approached an opposing village in any way. Like, since [00:46:04] Speaker A: I had to run through the [00:46:04] Speaker D: mountains, they have made the guards way too antsy. Like. Like a lot of the Horde quests in Hillsbread bring you really close to South Shore there. There is one quest where I think you've got to collect murloc eyes. And the Murlocs are so close to South Shore that you will pull a murloc and the murloc will pull a guard. So I'm like, I'm like struggling. I'm like. I'm like, try to run away from this Murloc who's casting Frostbolts and shit on me. And there's Also this level 60 elite guard who's trying to kill me. I was like, I'm not even trying to attack Celchor. Leave [00:46:41] Speaker A: me alone. Celchor specifically may have level 60 elites. Not everywhere does have that level of elite. So, like, getting into the Barrens from the alliance under the Horde, you had a bunch of cards, station post, and all around Taran. Like a bunch of the areas in there, you did not have level 60s. Those guys had maybe 3,000 health. [00:47:00] Speaker D: This. I'm just getting one shot by. By alliance guards. Like. Like, it feels like because they're near Dalaran too. They're the same level, like every. Like, maybe. Maybe it is just Hillsbrad that they've got the gods, like, juiced for some reason. But, like, they just come out of nowhere. Like when you're nowhere near the town. Like, the word South Shore wasn't even above my map yet. You know? Like, it's like, [00:47:23] Speaker A: I have a feeling they may have tuned that for the PvP section so that one faction could not dominate the Zone of the other [00:47:31] Speaker D: like they used to. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Yeah. So they. They enhance it and then did not switch the behavior between the PvE and PvP. [00:47:40] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:47:41] Speaker A: So that. That's my feeling [00:47:42] Speaker D: there. Yeah. [00:47:43] Speaker A: But. All [00:47:44] Speaker D: right, they really do need to tweak it. Like, the South Shore Aggro Range should be in Shoutout. South. Yeah. In South Shore. [00:47:51] Speaker A: Yeah. At least you should be able to see the walls. [00:47:54] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:47:55] Speaker C: Especially because there's a Horde quest that takes you to the graveyard of South Shore. [00:47:59] Speaker A: Yeah. That. That was a massive pain. I remember doing that and [00:48:02] Speaker D: I haven't done [00:48:03] Speaker A: that [00:48:03] Speaker D: one. I refused. Like, I was just like, I'm not. I. I can't get the Murlocs that are outside the town. I'm not even gonna try. [00:48:11] Speaker A: It took a long time for me to do that quest in bc. It was very difficult. So I. I think the guards Were it's still roughly that way. But not maybe that bad, [00:48:19] Speaker D: I don't think. They don't think the gods are level 60 back then? [00:48:21] Speaker A: No. I don't know if they're level 60 now. You'll only know that they're skulls. [00:48:25] Speaker D: Oh, I. I have an add on that actually [00:48:29] Speaker A: gives you their level. [00:48:30] Speaker D: Okay. Yeah, yeah. Level 60. [00:48:32] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good question for me. Hey Pillow, what kind of add ons are you using? [00:48:38] Speaker C: Rested XP? Because I've done this quest 800 million times and I just want to be as optimal as possible with them. So I just follow the blue arrow and just the dungeon journal one kind of. [00:48:53] Speaker D: Oh, I need to get that one. I keep forgetting [00:48:55] Speaker C: gives me like the loot. Another cool thing is nobody knows what any of the loot is yet from any of the in game. Like later dungeons. [00:49:06] Speaker A: Yeah. No. No quest, no dungeons. None of it. [00:49:09] Speaker C: Well, like they've changed all the gear, like standpoints, they've. They've changed all the stats, they've changed everything. So nobody knows what their best in slot, pre raid, best in slot, any of that's going to be. There's no information on it and they've locked it to where it can't even be data mined. [00:49:27] Speaker A: Yep. [00:49:27] Speaker D: Some things, some pieces of armor are now part of sets and some of the old sets have been updated. Like if you get full druid of the fang. [00:49:38] Speaker A: Yeah. You become a [00:49:40] Speaker D: snake. Yeah. It replaces your cat form with a snake. [00:49:43] Speaker A: It's great. That's great. Little things like that that they've decided to go back and mess around with. Fantastic. Liv. What's her. This [00:49:50] Speaker D: makes me mad that it's only a level like 20 Armiset. [00:49:53] Speaker A: You'll use it for a surprising amount of time. That set lasted until like almost 30 at least. [00:49:58] Speaker D: Yeah. Like even back in the day. But like when you hit 60 and it's like, oh man, I can't be a snake anymore. Unless the. If the Transmog affects that, then that would be like. I hope it does. [00:50:09] Speaker A: You might. You might have a raw ability to transmog your form if you unlock it. Because that's like how Transmog works with draft forms now. [00:50:16] Speaker D: Yeah. [00:50:16] Speaker A: But speaking going back to the original part. Hey Liv, what are you doing with with add ons? [00:50:21] Speaker D: So right now I have some of the roleplay add ons. There is one I found that adds like survival needs to the game. Like there's like a pure like roleplay thing. So it's like, you know, feed your character, etc. I'm an undead, so most of them don't work for me. So like that's mostly for other characters I run. I don't know what letter it is, but pearl unit frames and stuff like that. That's what gives me the actual level of the. Of the. Of the skull enemies. Generally I run fairly light. I think I'm running a gathering add on but I could not tell you what it is. And of course I'm running details with tiny threat so I can track my threat as a tank. Like I said, very, very light. Like I could go heavier, but I'm not. I'm keeping it like for my first character, [00:51:15] Speaker A: I'm trying to see how far I can go before I install an add on. I'm currently at zero. I'm waiting until like seeing when I break a threshold to be like, I fucking need something to do with this. And so far I have not hit that. The one thing that might get me to change is, is by the time I get deeper into my class, I might need something to help manage procs so that I have a better vision on that. Because looking up at your fucking buff manager to try and get procs is really annoying. [00:51:41] Speaker D: There is a. There is a proc add on already. [00:51:43] Speaker A: I know there is. That's definitely a thing. I just am seeing if I can go as long as possible without dealing with that. [00:51:51] Speaker D: So far the game doesn't feel like. Like in. Like retail you need ados otherwise like, [00:51:56] Speaker A: but like a lot to mitigate that. You don't need as many as you used to. [00:52:00] Speaker D: Yeah, but like here, like I. I don't like I'm downloading add ons not because I need them, but because I have a personal preference. Like I. I prefer how Perl sets out its unit frames, [00:52:13] Speaker A: which is how addons should be. That's how most people use add ons in most of the games. Problems with guys. [00:52:18] Speaker D: Remember Archimonde with the. With the mandatory DBM module? [00:52:22] Speaker A: Yeah. We corus being required for raiding for like 10 years. [00:52:28] Speaker D: Jesus. Like, if I ever have to download a weak aura like. Like that is my. How long can I go before I need this? That's my weak aura. That's that. That's weak auras for me. Like how long can I go before I need weak auras? [00:52:42] Speaker B: I haven't played WoW in a decade and my wife still refers to it as Deadly Jacks mods whenever I'm trying to direct her when we're playing a game together. [00:52:53] Speaker A: I haven't needed it yet. I still very frankly, I Still remember most of the dungeon mechanics and the. The new dungeon that I did, hall of Fame's. Frankly, it's baby's first dungeon, so it did not have mechanics strong enough for me to. Yeah, [00:53:04] Speaker C: I was gonna ask you, what mechanics are you talking about? I. There's like zero mechanics until you get to like maybe, maybe later dungeons. [00:53:15] Speaker D: I will disagree with you [00:53:16] Speaker A: that part. [00:53:17] Speaker D: I would disagree with you on one example. On that one Ragefire Chasm. I forgot that the fell guard in the middle has a fire nova. [00:53:28] Speaker A: There are like things [00:53:28] Speaker D: that has no telegraph whatsoever. [00:53:31] Speaker A: I forgot Mr. Smite stuns you twice. I forgot about that the first time we did it. [00:53:35] Speaker C: Unless you stun him first. [00:53:37] Speaker D: No, I mean realistically, you're supposed to just pull him to the island in the back. I forgot to do that. But I'm a paladin, so I just bubbled through the. Bubbled through the stun and then by the time he was done with his little like getting his weapon animation, my bubble had worn off, so. [00:53:55] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. But there's. There's very light mechanics, so certainly at this point I don't need any add ons to deal with that. I just. [00:54:02] Speaker C: The rest of the XP is it for me because I just like to not think about it. And it just tells me where to go, do quests, what order for the best leveling experience. [00:54:11] Speaker A: I have no desire. That is a negative desire to me. I do not want anything of this. That order as a personal thing. But again, we play games very differently, you and I. So I guess we can hit the last question and this one is definitely a very more individual point on this. We sort of have talked about it maybe a bit tangentially, but where do you want wow forever to go? What do you want it to become as time passes? We've been less than a true week long in this, but two years, three years, four years down the line. Where do you want wow forever to go? [00:54:45] Speaker D: I mean, I [00:54:46] Speaker A: know [00:54:46] Speaker D: where I want it [00:54:46] Speaker A: to go. [00:54:47] Speaker D: Yeah. So I. I think the retail wow. Like the damage has been done with Shadowlands and everything. Like I was talking about in the pre show, once they finish the last Titan. I don't think there's very many places the story can go because they kind of like they've thrown so much stuff at us to try and get things like back on track that the story like we've already like captured the Super Devil. We've like put a stop to the big sword the Super Devil put in the planet. We've interacted with Azeroth personally, like, all that's left is to kill Xalata, wake Azeroth up, and. And. And then what? Like, our planet woke up? Our planet is now sapient and is a God. What do we do? I don't really think you can go very far from that because wow, at its heart feels like a D and D campaign, right? But then as we've gone further and further on, it started to go more and more away from that, where we're no longer an adventurer, you know, we're no longer like, [00:55:54] Speaker A: well, we've just hit the level [00:55:55] Speaker D: 20. [00:55:56] Speaker A: How far do you go? Would you have a level 20 campaign? [00:55:58] Speaker D: Yeah, we hit level 20 a while ago and the Dungeon Master was not ready for that, you know, So I personally think that after the last Titan, they should kind of bring retail wow into like a. Like a. Like a lower intensity thing, like kind of like a semi sunset. Because there's always going to be people that prefer the more handholdy version of wow that retail is, and then have wow forever with whatever its timeline turned into be to be basically WOW2 with the horizontal progression going through maybe revisiting expansion concepts and redoing them. So Wrath of the Lich King. But maybe we focus on different things because everything that's happening in Forever is essentially a fork timeline where after Warcraft 3 happened instead of Arthas parking Naxramas above the Plaguelands, he instead goes, hey, Kelthazard, go fuck up Sylvanas. And then he does. [00:57:06] Speaker A: Okay, [00:57:07] Speaker D: yeah. And then instead of Sylvanas, like, wiping out the undead Paladins, the undead Paladins come to help and Sylvanas now has to deal with them. And like, there's a whole bunch of other, like, things that I'm not super aware of that have likely happened and seem to have happened just based on context clues that have changed the direction of the story. So, like, if we go to Outland, maybe we fight on Illidan's side this time. Because now we, like, we as players have the context that Illidan's not an asshole. And maybe [00:57:42] Speaker A: he is, but [00:57:43] Speaker D: something happens that makes Kil' Jaeden not. Yeah, maybe we have Kil' Jaden not do like a false flag attack that gets us aimed at Illidan. And instead, like, Illidan sends like a message and like calling adventurers, like, instead of it us being the champion we are, we're literally just like the chuckle that get hired to solve problems like DND campaigns normally are. [00:58:08] Speaker A: That does. [00:58:08] Speaker D: I kind of went long in the tooth There. [00:58:10] Speaker A: I mean this is going to be a longer than 2 second question. This is going to be a longer than usual podcast episode most likely. But this is what happens when you get verbose people talking about things they are deeply passionate about. No, those are definitely interesting ideas. Pillow. Where do you see wow. Forever going. [00:58:28] Speaker C: I'm kind of in the same boat. I know they've already all but confirmed. I'm pretty sure I don't even know if it's like maybe they did confirm it is the Emerald Dream. Oh, [00:58:38] Speaker D: I can't wait. That was supposed to be the first expansion [00:58:41] Speaker C: so. Yeah, I know. I've heard a lot of talk of that and I haven't really. I'm trying to stay spoiler out of spoilers on this. Like I don't, I don't watch videos on this. Well, what I'm hoping with the horizontal like direction they're going, they're going to throw in new zones and I don't want them to always be an end game zone. I want to be like, all right, here's a new level 15 to 20 zone. So when you go in on a do a new alt it's a whole new experience. Like you're not doing the same quest over and over and over again. Which most of the new zones are leveling zones. It's not in game zones. And I hope they keep in that direction because with the Legacy system that they added, they're trying to make the game much more alt friendly. You know, I don't know if you played on the beta with it [00:59:34] Speaker A: Legacy at all. Yeah, [00:59:36] Speaker C: but the Legacy system is achievements. It's the achievement system for classic. Wow. You do some [00:59:43] Speaker D: uses the same keybinds. [00:59:44] Speaker C: Yeah. You get a some. You get us. You do a thing. It gives you a point. You spend this point and in the beta they think they gave you what like 10 points to play with. And five of these points you could spend were to reduce the level cap for or the level the starting level for talents. So you could start getting talents at level 5 instead of having to wait till 10. [01:00:08] Speaker A: That's awesome. [01:00:10] Speaker C: There's one. There were some talents that when you're fishing, you have a chance to catch two fish or three fish. And then there was one pretty much. There was one part on there like it mentioned when fishing at a certain node you have a chance to do this like special, like special things to increase your professions, make them better. Better profession points to a chance when you're skinning to get rarer skins or double your skinning output. And the same for mining all the way through. Different things that you could do all the way across. Increase your food time or your well fed buffs. So the Legacy system looks very interesting. I just hope that they just. I just want them to keep the game alt friendly. That's my main hope. [01:00:57] Speaker A: I just opened it up to check this. Legacy becomes available when you reach 25. [01:01:01] Speaker C: Yes. [01:01:02] Speaker A: It's not remarkably early in the game. It's not really late. It takes a few hours to get to 25, especially if you've never played before. But yeah, no, Legacy is. Legacy is coming soon to me. [01:01:12] Speaker C: Yeah. I'm 22 hours in, 24 hours in. And I'm only level 24 because I spend a lot of my time fishing and doing professions. Like that's what I like to do in Classic is I like professions and I like making gold. I'm a gold goblin. [01:01:28] Speaker D: Oh, they haven't even added all of the things yet. Legacy talents. I. I've got the game open now. Yeah. We're still missing two talents in the middle tree. Two. Yeah, it looks like we're missing like two talents from each. From each tree, [01:01:46] Speaker A: apparently. I've played 25 and a half hours. [01:01:49] Speaker D: I'm taking my time [01:01:50] Speaker C: really slow [01:01:51] Speaker A: on this character. [01:01:52] Speaker D: I have. I. I have played 52 hours, 50 minutes [01:01:56] Speaker A: on this character. But also I have other things that I've been doing. Yeah. Out of these three of us who have played, I'm the only one who has been splitting character time. As I said, I have a bunch that I play with another character specifically. So I've had a very large dichotomy in what I've been playing. I can only do solo stuff so long. I have to do. I don't have to. But I prefer to do that character with him when I have a chance to. It's been fun to do that pillow. Did you finish? [01:02:21] Speaker C: For the love and for the love of God, I hope they keep world events if they do them. I just don't want it to get the retail treatment. I don't want to have to go around to different zones and do 800 different events to stay relevant. And I don't want 100 world quests I gotta log in and do. I don't want to do that. [01:02:42] Speaker D: I don't want the world bus from Classic. That's what turned me off. [01:02:48] Speaker A: Don't exist. World buffs can do a thing. They turn off in raids. [01:02:52] Speaker C: Yeah. The world buffs are for the world, not for the raids. [01:02:56] Speaker A: Yeah. That was one of the first things that they Talked about was. Yeah, trying to do the world buff event thing that people had trains to do before raiding all those buffs. Turn off. You do not get that. [01:03:06] Speaker D: That was the only good thing about that was leveling up a mage to the point where I could get spell steal. Well, no spell steal. Why did I say mage [01:03:17] Speaker C: or whatever it is. [01:03:18] Speaker D: Yeah, Shaman Purge. Sorry, I. [01:03:21] Speaker A: A mage does have spell steal, so. [01:03:24] Speaker D: Yeah. Yeah, I bet. Wait, wait, Mage has spell steal? It wasn't happening in bc, [01:03:29] Speaker A: you know, I don't remember what level it was. I couldn't [01:03:32] Speaker D: see. Oh, boy. Yeah. No, like in. In. But yeah, in classic. In classic, if you were. If you. I. If you had a shaman, you get up to purge, you could just sit outside of raids on PvP servers and just whenever you see someone, you just start mashing your purge key. Enjoy raiding without your world buffs, fucko. [01:03:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:03:54] Speaker D: Play the game properly. [01:03:56] Speaker A: Okay, well, I guess. I guess to talk about how I want this game to go and I have a very similar feel to them. We don't know precisely what they're going to do in terms of the rest of classic, because the only raid from Classic. Wow, right now that is open is Onyxia. The other raid is to do Hydro Raid, which is a 20. Man, that's not what's available in original classic. We would have Molten Core. We would have. On Kiraj, we would have a bunch of other raids that were part of the things on Xbox. We do not know exactly what we're getting anymore. We could get the exact same set of raids, the exact same progression going through, and then they'll add things as time goes on. Or they could save those for later and give us other stuff in the meantime. We don't know. [01:04:44] Speaker D: Got it. I hope they don't do Scarab Lord. Or if they do do Scarab Lord, I do not want to go back to the bug mines. [01:04:52] Speaker A: Need to go down and get yourself a specific scarab mount. Yeah, not happy about that one. There's a good chance that the world event for the Gates of Ahn' Qiraj might be a thing we don't know. [01:05:03] Speaker D: I [01:05:04] Speaker C: don't mind world events. I hope they do world events. I just don't want them to do like they do in retail. [01:05:09] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:05:10] Speaker A: So I had to guess right now, the things that are technically available, if you hit 60, you have Onyxia, you have the five world dragons, you have the four sleeping emerald dream Dragons, and then the Blue Dragon that wanders down Azura, and then I don't think there's any there might be Doom Lord Khazak might exist too. I haven't gotten down there. I don't know anything else. That's for max level. [01:05:37] Speaker D: I. I really hope they've learned from Scarab Lord because like, they where mine. I got like all of my information about how it went on Classic is secondhand. But I remember back in the day, like you had entire guilds working to get one person Scarab Lord. And like, I remember spending so much time like grinding bunch hug chitin. Right? And like, I didn't even get to ring the gong. Like, I put all that effort in for like my. My guild mate to get it. But because, like, I didn't like, win the selection process. Right. I was so far down the priority list, I didn't even get my staff completed. I didn't even get to ring the gong. Like, that felt so bad. And then when I heard in Classic that they were going to do the opening of the gates, like the exact same way, I was like, that is so stupid. Like, at the very least, like, if you participate, you should get. I. I like. I get it. Like, oh, participation trophies, whatever. I don't give a sht. Like if I'm putting that much effort in. Like, yeah, give like the people that get their staves, their. Their staffs done. Even if it is just guild politics. Give them like, amount. Right? Both. Like, at the very least, like, if I helped put the shit in and I spent like hours grinding bug Chitin, I should get something like a title or a mount or something. Maybe that's just me being frustrated like 20 years on. But [01:07:07] Speaker A: there's a lot [01:07:08] Speaker C: I agree with that [01:07:08] Speaker A: that goes on. I think what I want them to do specifically because we know Ragnaros is most likely going to be coming. We've already heard about Al' Akir through the Sky Elves. I want them to go through the four Elemental Lords. We know there was supposed to be a bunch of cut content in Cataclysm for the Water. There was supposed to be a Water Raid. Yeah. We never got [01:07:33] Speaker D: Neptulon. [01:07:34] Speaker A: Neptulon just ended in a dungeon. Yeah. They had all that cut content they could do and put it in here. [01:07:40] Speaker D: Yeah. And Therazane, she has like, combat animations that are never used. So like, at some point they planned on either us fighting her or her fighting something. [01:07:50] Speaker A: There's a. [01:07:51] Speaker D: Because like, she's got those animations and they're never used. [01:07:54] Speaker A: There's a lot. [01:07:55] Speaker D: Like, her model is unique. I don't think Therazane's model is like, it's [01:07:59] Speaker A: completely. I don't think I've ever seen anything else look like therazene. [01:08:02] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:08:04] Speaker A: So I'm hoping we get the Elemental Lords as a new thing to go through. I'm. I'm hoping we don't open the world outside as much. I hope we don't go to Outlands for at least a long time. I want to keep that gate closed for a long time. Stick around Azeroth, I want. Now there's plenty of places in Azeroth that we can stick around with for a while. [01:08:27] Speaker D: If we get Outland, I don't want to get the whole thing at once. Because Hellfire Peninsula was originally supposed to be in vanilla. And the idea was is that after Nazul fucked everything with the. With his staff, like, Outland just kind of broke apart [01:08:50] Speaker A: even [01:08:51] Speaker D: further. Yeah. Yeah. And the. If I. Based on, like, what I've heard, right, like, like in interviews and stuff like that, like, like Outland was like, Outland's supposed to be like, you have Hellfire Peninsula as one of the end zones of vanilla. And then during like a future expansion, like, someone would find another chunk of Outland and open a portal to that. And then, like, Outland would be like a piecemeal thing. Like, as expansions go on. And then like, in B.C. they just kind of went like, ah, fuck it. Just have the whole thing. I think that would be cool. Like, and it would give them a lot more reason to expect. Because Hellfire Peninsula has got fucking nothing in it, you know, like, compared to, like, the map in Warcraft 3. Like, in Warcraft 3, like, when you see, like, the map of Outland, of the outland zones, like, there is like, so much more like ruined temples. Like, there's like, stuff along the Road of the Damned or Road of Bones, whatever that's called. Like, and we just. We just never see it in. In actual retail because it's all. Because apparently it's all gone. [01:09:53] Speaker A: Yeah, it's. It's a very, very weird. [01:09:57] Speaker C: And the best part is they can create this story any way they want. Like, we could go to Outlands and it still be Draenor. Like, hasn't even been blown up yet. Or it could be half blown [01:10:08] Speaker A: up. That one, we know it's supposed to be blown up because we have a specific timeline divergence. We know exactly what should have happened up until X. That X diversion point is the additional content from Warcraft 3. That was the prelude intro into what how Forever is. So everything from the games before that happened [01:10:28] Speaker C: one Thing we didn't mention is what our ideas are. How. How do we feel in this about the new classes that they might or might not be adding? Like I heard Death Knight could possibly be coming, but not the same kind of Death Knight that we have in retail. You're talking about [01:10:44] Speaker A: the. The survey they sent out. [01:10:46] Speaker C: Yes. The Sand Lean, Death Knight, [01:10:51] Speaker D: the Tinkerer kind of thing. [01:10:52] Speaker C: I could care less about the Tinker. Like I'm not [01:10:55] Speaker A: the illusion [01:10:55] Speaker C: interested in that. [01:10:56] Speaker A: For me, I think [01:10:58] Speaker C: Sand Lean sounded awesome. [01:11:00] Speaker A: I see no reason for them not to make more classes, more races with more content, with more zones being added. Why add more classes, more races? [01:11:10] Speaker C: We've already got [01:11:11] Speaker D: confirmed that [01:11:12] Speaker C: we're going to like it's confirmed. We're going to Quel'. Thalas. Like we're going to see high elves, not just blue elves. Like we're going to go to where Silver Moon. Silver Moon is. We're going to see Sunwell. Like we're going to Quel'. Thalas. [01:11:28] Speaker A: We don't know when, but it will eventually happen. This is something that like they have essentially stated that if it's part of the world as the original map dictated, you're going to eventually see it. [01:11:40] Speaker C: Well, they had it circled on their own map. Like they had it circled. [01:11:44] Speaker A: So the only [01:11:45] Speaker C: thing we [01:11:45] Speaker A: are. We know for a fact Northrend exists because of stuff through Warcraft 3. We do not know anything about Cataclysm content. We do not know anything about Pandaria content. [01:11:57] Speaker D: The Dragon Isles exist. They used to be on maps. [01:12:00] Speaker A: Yes. So any of those creations are up for grabs as a thing. The Dragon Isles is supposed to be sealed off to us. So we're not I guess supposed to go there because of dragon stuff. Who knows? They can open that up through events and things going down. We can do anything with this. Like my. My hope for them is every time they make a new zone, they do one or two leveling zones. For every max level zone they make, make it so that there's more areas for us to level in. So that when you do eventually make other characters, we have other reasons to go around. You can put dungeons in at any fucking level at any point in time people will go see them. You can make max level dungeons. You can make a bunch of leveling dungeons do it all. I want to see things throughout the world. Just kid had it. [01:12:45] Speaker C: One thing I'm hoping and I've heard this is the truth. They're gonna make 40 man raids optional, not required for progression. [01:12:54] Speaker D: That'd be nice. [01:12:55] Speaker A: So the one thing that I have heard about this is the 40 man raids will not give better gear than the 20 man raids. So it'll be more akin to the more recent era times where you have, yeah, you can do a 10 man or a 20 man version, but they give the same stuff. The reason to do a 40 man is that you get more stuff. [01:13:16] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:13:17] Speaker D: Like I'm hoping like we get the same raids. It's just they have a 40 man mode. That makes sense. [01:13:21] Speaker A: That's possible. They might try and do a rebalance to do either a 20 or a 40 or maybe a Flex. I don't know if they want to bring that in. [01:13:28] Speaker D: I mean they could just give us 25 man molten core. Cuz they already did that like for the Twent for the. I think it was the 20th anniversary [01:13:36] Speaker A: that was a 40 man. [01:13:37] Speaker D: Was it? Did I just get unlucky and like just half the people didn't load in because I completed it with 20 people. [01:13:44] Speaker C: I think Season of Discovery's raid was a lot less 40, wasn't it? [01:13:48] Speaker A: Oh, they're making a 10 man raid. So like they're, they're giving us 10 man raids. [01:13:52] Speaker D: Yeah. All right. So I, Yeah, well regardless, like the version of Molten Core they gave us back on the 20th anniversary, you, you could very easily do it with 20 people because I did it. [01:14:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:01] Speaker D: Like so like even then like you know, they, they've already got like the balance. [01:14:05] Speaker C: Molten Core and Season of Discovery was designed for 20 players. [01:14:11] Speaker D: Okay. So yeah, they've done the, they've done the work already. No reason not to. [01:14:15] Speaker A: So yeah, I think there's a lot of promise, there's a lot of hope. And for the next several weeks, every several episodes, you're gonna hear me talking about new stuff in Wild Forever. Because I'm gonna be here for a while. Pillow, you'll probably hear the same thing. [01:14:29] Speaker C: Yep. [01:14:29] Speaker A: Depending on if we get live back again for another episode. You may hear from her again too. I think we'll be playing it for a while. I think you'll hear stuff about it as we progress through it for some time. Until. Until we're told in no uncertain terms, you have talked too much about. Wow. [01:14:44] Speaker C: Okay, so I just looked [01:14:45] Speaker D: it up. [01:14:47] Speaker C: This is interesting. Blizzard's approach to raid sizes in World of Warcraft Forever centers on a rigid multi bracket structure 10, 20 and 40 player fixed sizes. Instead of implementing modern scaling flex rates, Blizzard intends to launch at least 110, 120 for every single raid tier and saving 40 player raid tiers will only appear selectively for specific epic encounters. [01:15:12] Speaker A: So those are going to be your classic rates. It's going to be. [01:15:16] Speaker C: Well, I'm thinking like epic encounters being like single boss. Single boss fights. Oh, [01:15:22] Speaker A: it could be an exit [01:15:22] Speaker D: like each. So each guild is probably going to need to have two rate. Two raid teams [01:15:27] Speaker A: or you [01:15:28] Speaker D: combine. [01:15:31] Speaker A: But. But that's. That sounds like. Well, you're probably going to have two raid teams because you're going to split your 20. [01:15:36] Speaker C: Yeah. Anxious layer is a 40 man. Hyjal is a 20 and Barrow's deep is 10. [01:15:42] Speaker D: Okay. [01:15:43] Speaker A: So if it's going to be individual events, it'll be things like Onyxia. They may bring it back into things like Kel'. Thuzad. They may split that raid into a 20 and a 40 because they've done the 20 man version of Naxx Ramas. And then they can just pull Kel' Thuzad out and make him a special encounter as a 40. That could be cool. [01:16:02] Speaker D: I will make an argument on Nax. I think Nax should probably be split into its individual wings because that's what everyone did anyway back in the day. To [01:16:11] Speaker A: the wings is an individual totally plausible? [01:16:14] Speaker D: Yeah, like, because like my guild, like we'd never beat Kel' Thuzad in vanilla. We never got that far. But we beat. I think it was the military wing. And then we got like stuck on one of the other wings. But whenever we went in we weren't like, okay, we're going to do next. It's like, okay, we're going to do the military wing. We're going to do plague wing. We're going to do spider wing. Like, you know, like so, like, like, why not just split it up into like [01:16:42] Speaker A: multiple different raids? [01:16:43] Speaker D: Four raids. [01:16:44] Speaker A: Totally doable. [01:16:44] Speaker D: Yeah, [01:16:45] Speaker A: they're. They're not buffing them to classic anymore. They get to make these choices on that. Do you remember who Hagen the Unclean is? [01:16:53] Speaker D: Yes, yes, yes. [01:16:55] Speaker A: I was in that. He's only fight for an hour and a half. [01:16:57] Speaker D: God. Yeah. No, I think. Oh, he was who. I think he was who we got stuck because he's the safety dog. [01:17:03] Speaker A: He's a safety dance. There were three of us. [01:17:05] Speaker D: Yeah, we could never get that. We could never get the safety dance because we had one of our. One of our tanks was an Australian and I think we had like a couple of other people that were playing from outside the US and like their ping wasn't good enough. [01:17:18] Speaker A: You. You did not need them alive. If as long as you could last for an Hour and a half. He had no enrage timer. [01:17:25] Speaker D: No, but like, we. That [01:17:26] Speaker A: was. [01:17:26] Speaker D: That was the thing, though. I did hate the [01:17:30] Speaker A: unclean for an hour and a half. [01:17:34] Speaker C: Now let's look at this in hd. Oof. [01:17:37] Speaker A: Oof. Yeah. I do not think modern. Modern raiders would allow three people to do that fight for an hour and a half. [01:17:44] Speaker D: No, [01:17:45] Speaker B: no, they would just demand you wipe and try again. [01:17:48] Speaker D: Yeah, [01:17:49] Speaker A: but no, that time we had people cheering us on. Go, go, go. It was a weird little world. [01:17:55] Speaker D: Luckily, modern day Internet means that there's no fucking excuse to lag out on safety dance. [01:18:02] Speaker A: So [01:18:02] Speaker D: I will finally get two Wings of Nex under my belt. Yay. [01:18:07] Speaker A: All right, I think it's time we close out our wow discussion. We finish up here. We've done this for over an hour of discussion. Let's bring our. Let's bring Jax back into the conversation. Let's talk about what we've been doing in our lives. He's gonna save one thing for the last. So, Jax, start us off with your other two topics. [01:18:24] Speaker B: Sure. So, because I finished the thing I'm gonna save for last, I started a new RPG on my Switch. I picked up the Lunar Remastered Collection, I guess you want to call it. It's two games because it was on sale on Switch and I have Lunar 2 on PS1, but I never had the original Lunar, so I just said fuck it and bought the Remastered Collection. So I can just play them on my Switch. It's portable and I finally get to actually play these games. And Lunar is weird because this is a PS1 era RPG that feels like an early Super Nintendo RPG. [01:19:00] Speaker D: Wait, what way? I've never even heard of this game, so I don't [01:19:03] Speaker B: know. I've never heard of Lunar. Okay. [01:19:05] Speaker D: No, [01:19:07] Speaker B: it's very old school in its presentation. Your individual party members have their own inventory, which was largely something that was gone by the PlayStation era. In terms of games [01:19:21] Speaker A: not on Game [01:19:22] Speaker B: Boy, yes, it very much feels like a, like, circa 1991 JRPG, except because it was a PlayStation game. It has heavy use of full motion video, in this case, anime cutscenes. 90s anime cutscenes, which are charming. They're not good, but they're charming. Also, this collection has the option to just turn on the Japanese voices, so I do not have to deal with [01:19:53] Speaker A: bad American voices. [01:19:54] Speaker B: Either the original voice acting, which was terrible, or the remastered English dub, which is fine. I can just listen to the original Japanese dub from the 90s. [01:20:04] Speaker D: So, question. [01:20:06] Speaker B: Yes? [01:20:06] Speaker D: When you say charming, like, do you mean, like, are we talking like Parasite Eve charming. Or are we talking Zelda CD I charming? [01:20:20] Speaker B: Not that one. I'm not familiar with Parasite Eve. I know of it, but I've never played it, so I can't. [01:20:25] Speaker D: Mitochondria is the powerhouse of the cell [01:20:28] Speaker B: fair [01:20:29] Speaker D: and it rebels. [01:20:31] Speaker B: No. This is very much like the cutscenes that were added to Chrono trigger for the PlayStation release, except these are intended there from the get go. The game is designed around them a little more. I'm not very far in. It definitely has the. The old JRPG design of you're expected to just kind of go grind in the first dungeon for a bit and leave and heal and come back in, which is something that modern JRPGs just do not do at all. But it was very common in the old ones. It's fine. It's fun. So far, most of the game arts working designs translation is still there. So the translation is a little fast and loose for the way they did it, which was a staple of the companies involved when this was original. And I'm glad they kept it for the remaster for people who played the PlayStation 1 original English language releases that still get to have that nostalgic experience. It's fun. I like it so far. I also. Go ahead. [01:21:37] Speaker D: All right. I was gonna say. So you remember when I played Chrono Trigger, right? [01:21:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:21:42] Speaker D: And you remember why I. Why I stopped? [01:21:47] Speaker B: Tell the listeners. Because I. It's been a while. [01:21:49] Speaker D: So spoiler for like a game from 1997, Chrono fucking dies. [01:21:56] Speaker B: Yep. [01:21:57] Speaker D: And. And the game very much encourages you to have Crono be your strongest guy. [01:22:03] Speaker B: Yep. [01:22:05] Speaker D: And then they just fucking kill him and then replace him with a character that is basically. So it's very Dragon Ball Crono is Goku, this other character whose name I forget because [01:22:20] Speaker B: I [01:22:20] Speaker D: just named him Vegeta. [01:22:22] Speaker B: His name is Magus. He is literally Vegeta hairline because. [01:22:27] Speaker D: Yeah, I think [01:22:27] Speaker B: I literally renamed [01:22:28] Speaker D: him Vegeta. [01:22:29] Speaker A: In the game. [01:22:30] Speaker B: Chrono Trigger has Akira Toriyama character art and Magus very much is Vegeta coded. [01:22:37] Speaker D: So Croto gets replaced with Vegeta and Vegeta sucks. [01:22:42] Speaker B: Okay, I strongly disagree. [01:22:45] Speaker D: Hang on, hang on, let me finish. Because if you've got Chrono as your strongest guy, Chrono is set up as. As is a. Is very much a, like, fighter. Right, [01:22:56] Speaker B: right. [01:22:57] Speaker D: And Magus, you said, much like Vegeta is a Ki blast spammer. So if you've got your party and how you play the game set up around. All right, I've got my big, strong Goku, and then I've got the people around him. And then you're like, all right, now here's a Ki Blast spammer to replace Goku. Your party composition falls apart, and you need to relearn how to play the game. [01:23:19] Speaker B: And then [01:23:20] Speaker D: if [01:23:20] Speaker B: you want [01:23:20] Speaker D: to [01:23:20] Speaker B: get the problem [01:23:21] Speaker D: and if you want to get Crono back, you need to defeat what I was told is the hardest boss in the game. Save the final boss if you fight him at the start of the game. I'm not doing that shit. [01:23:35] Speaker B: I think someone oversold it a little bit, but yes. [01:23:38] Speaker D: Well, I mean, regardless, I couldn't kill it because it's an anti magic boss and all I had was casters. [01:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah. See, I think the key difference here is you clearly played with Crono and two mages, so I'm assuming Marley and Lukka. [01:23:51] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:23:51] Speaker A: You did not use the Frog. [01:23:53] Speaker B: My party always had Chrono and then either Frog and Ayla or Frog or Ayla. I always had another fighter with Chrono. So when Magus came in and Chrono left, it was fine. I still had fighters. [01:24:08] Speaker D: Yeah. Like my. I. I didn't use Frog because I like, in my brain, I'm like, well, I got my tank, I've got my healer, I've got my mage. That's how my brain work. Because I grew up playing Final Fantasy. Like, my first game I ever [01:24:21] Speaker B: played [01:24:21] Speaker A: was Final Fantasy Virgin or fucking [01:24:24] Speaker B: Chrono and Frog. Yeah. [01:24:25] Speaker D: No, my Final Fantasy was always like, all right, like, my fighter, my wizard, my healer, and like, maybe a rogue. [01:24:33] Speaker B: But Chrono and Frog have some of the best dual techs in the entire game. [01:24:37] Speaker D: Yeah. Also, [01:24:38] Speaker A: Frog is just the coolest character in the game. [01:24:40] Speaker B: He is. [01:24:41] Speaker D: Point being. Right. With that in mind, do you think that this is one that I would enjoy if. If I enjoyed Final Fantasy 6 and that is my baseline for JRPGs? [01:24:51] Speaker B: I don't know yet. I'm not far enough in to be able to answer that. But be warned, it is definitely older style than Final Fantasy 6 or Chrono Trigger. [01:25:06] Speaker D: Okay. [01:25:07] Speaker B: This is more. The game design seems more of the, like, Final Fantasy 4 era. [01:25:14] Speaker D: Oh, okay. [01:25:17] Speaker B: It is newer than Final Fantasy 6 and Chrono Trigger, but the, like, the design intent is more along the lines of, like, the original Lufia. [01:25:25] Speaker D: It's retro. [01:25:27] Speaker B: Yes, it was retro at the time and now it's 30 years old. But yeah, I've been enjoying it. It's corny, which I love when a game is actually willing to be corny. I also finished Castlevania Belmont's Curse, which is awesome. It's the newest Castlevania game you play as Rose Belmont, Trevor and Sypha's daughter. And the game has kind of some weird pacing for as abilities unlock, you start getting abilities that feel very niche very early on. Like, literally the second movement ability you get is the parry mechanic, but also the ability to just phase through certain types of walls that you then have to, like, toggle on and off in platforming segments to get through sections to where you have to, like, phase through a wall, but then turn it off so that you can wall jump off the next wall to wall jump off the wall you just phased through to get up. The platforming in it throughout feels very Prince of the Lost Crown. And I do mean that as a compliment, because I loved Prince of Persia, the Lost Crown. The very first movement skill you get is a, like, grappling hook whip skill that is, like, the main movement for the entire game. [01:26:47] Speaker D: I. Have you watched the animes by any chance? [01:26:51] Speaker B: Yes. So Trevor and Sypha being the, like, characters in the first Castlevania anime. These are not exactly the same version of Trevor and Sypha. It's a separate continuity, but it's very much those characters. [01:27:09] Speaker D: Okay. Because I was wondering if, like, they'd start, like, following the anime. Cause I'm pretty sure the animes did really good. Like, Nocturne was really good. And like, Rose Belmont, I think is. Oh, God, my brain. I'm sorry. I'm still kind of high. Well, [01:27:26] Speaker A: I guess we have to bring this around again. They can't, [01:27:29] Speaker D: because they [01:27:29] Speaker A: don't own them. [01:27:30] Speaker D: Oh, okay. I was gonna say, like, what is the Belmond with the blue jacket? [01:27:35] Speaker B: Richter. [01:27:36] Speaker D: Richter. Fuck, yeah. Cause Rose is Richter's mom, I'm pretty sure, and she's in the anime, so I was curious. [01:27:43] Speaker B: Richter and Trevor are hundreds of years apart in the time frame. [01:27:47] Speaker D: Okay, okay. [01:27:50] Speaker B: Richter is the protagonist of Castlevania, Rondo of Blood and Symphony of the Night. He's a present character, in which I think is set, like, 300 years after the events of Castlevania 3, which is what the first anime series was based on, [01:28:06] Speaker D: to be fair. Some of those Belmonts live for fucking ages. It's kind of hard to, like, judge, like, time span sometimes. [01:28:13] Speaker A: Yeah. But [01:28:13] Speaker B: they're [01:28:14] Speaker A: still mostly human. Like, I think the. The longest. Well, okay. Not counting the one who becomes Dracula, he does not count. [01:28:21] Speaker B: Okay. It is actually even more time than I thought. Trevor Belmont's area is the late 1400s. Richter Belmont's era is the end of the 1700s. They are literally over 300 years apart. [01:28:38] Speaker D: Yeah. Because I know Julius Belmont like shows up in the Bell in the one that's set in the 1990s. And then he also shows up in the one that's set in like what, like 2050. [01:28:48] Speaker B: So he's present in Castlevania, Aria of Sorrow and dawn of sorrow, which are 2035 and 2036. [01:28:55] Speaker D: 35. [01:28:56] Speaker A: 36, yeah. Cause he's 20 years directly after the events of something because of their age. [01:29:03] Speaker D: Yeah. And he's already relatively old in the 90s, so he's lasting for a [01:29:07] Speaker B: minute. He's old in the Sorrow games. Yeah. [01:29:10] Speaker A: He's like. He's [01:29:12] Speaker B: not a young person, but yeah. The Trevor and Sypha characters are some of the earliest in the entire Castlevania timeline. So Rose is very much in that same vein. She's like 1500 A.D. maybe we're not. I don't know that we're given an exact date. [01:29:30] Speaker A: I'm going to break cycle here for a minute. Because Patrick Stewart died relatively recently. I'm going to. And we're talking about Castlevania. I'm going to give a shout out to a surprisingly unpopular but also surprisingly good pop game in which he is the. The voice you hear throughout the game. Lords of Shadow. It is officially like the earliest timeline and also the latest timeline with Castlevania with there's a Shadow two or not the latest, but far into the future. It is the very first in the timeline of Castlevania because it is before Dracula exists. [01:30:07] Speaker B: I am not familiar with Lords of Shadow. [01:30:10] Speaker A: Patrick Stewart is one of the main voice actors. He is essentially the narrator. It's quite good. He does play a character in the game. Take a look at it. [01:30:19] Speaker D: I will consider it. [01:30:21] Speaker B: Fair enough. So the other thought I wanted to share with Belmont's Curse is I did get the true ending. I got all of the different endings. There is a bad ending, a normal ending and a true ending. The true ending condition basically is just do most of the things. It is not 100% requirement, but you do have to do a significant amount of non required stuff to be able to access the stuff that lets you get to the true ending. And Belmont's Curse may have the hardest Dracula boss of any Metroidvania Castlevania period. Like, I don't know that it's necessarily harder than some of the like action platformer ones. Like I don't remember Dracula from Rondo of Blood, for example. Um, but it's definitely harder than Any incarnation of Dracula in any of the Metroidvania games in the franchise. This Dracula fucked me up a lot [01:31:17] Speaker D: in [01:31:18] Speaker B: both phases because he has a phase one where he does the traditional Dracula, like teleport, shoot fireballs kind of stuff, and a phase two where he's big monster Dracula. Just like many other Castlevanias, both phases are a threat. [01:31:36] Speaker D: I think my favorite piece of Castlevania lore is that the whip is a lady. There's a lady in the whip? [01:31:43] Speaker B: Yup. Oh, that was the other thing. Even though this is not the same continuity as the anime, there are characters that you will recognize from the anime and be like, oh, this is this game's take on that same character. Characters that weren't really fleshed out in previous Castlevanias. They might have existed in like the Lore books or in spin off games are now like bosses also. Fucking Joan of Arc is a character in this game and she's awesome. [01:32:12] Speaker D: Oh, God. Do they. Is it just Joan of Arc or is her serial killer boyfriend in as well? [01:32:20] Speaker B: I freely admit I do not know enough about Joan of Arc to know who you're referring to. [01:32:25] Speaker D: Oh, no, this is not a Castlevania thing. This is a real life thing. Joan of Arc had a boyfriend and after she was killed, he started serial killing. [01:32:32] Speaker B: I see. [01:32:33] Speaker A: I mean, [01:32:33] Speaker D: yeah, he was, he was, I think he was France's first serial killer. [01:32:37] Speaker A: If, if your girlfriend is like, ritually murdered, yeah, maybe I'd go off on it. [01:32:43] Speaker D: I mean, according to him, right, he wanted to start a serial killing, like ages ago. And then like, he met Joan, fell in love with her, and like, and he was up for nobility as well. And then, and then like, he's just like, okay, I've fallen in love. I no longer feel the need to murder. Joe Devart gets put on fire and he's like, all right then, sign from God. [01:33:04] Speaker B: Fair enough. [01:33:04] Speaker D: It's great. I, I, I will fight his name, but like, he, like, very fun. If you, if you like learning about serial killers, then that is a definite one to look at, like historical serial killers, not the freakazoid shit, [01:33:18] Speaker B: right? Well, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I enjoyed the hell out of Belmont's Curse. I also watched a speedrun of it. People are already beating True ending in about 48 minutes, which is insane. This game is broken for speedrunners and we'll see what gets patched. [01:33:40] Speaker A: Okay. [01:33:41] Speaker B: But the speedruns right now are crazy also, just because I am playing the Switch version. Be fairly warned, the Switch version definitely has some issues it has crashed on me maybe half a dozen times on my playthrough. [01:33:57] Speaker D: Apparently this guy's name was Gilles de Rais. And I'm only bringing this up because. Jax, I'm gonna send this to you. This man looks like a medieval incel. Look at this man. [01:34:06] Speaker B: Oh, dear God. Yes. Yes, he does. Literally looks like a medieval incel. [01:34:12] Speaker A: Okay, well. [01:34:14] Speaker B: Oh my God. Weirdly. No, no, no. The. The. The speedrun apparently is down to 35 minutes, 31 seconds for true ending. [01:34:25] Speaker A: That sounds like there's some [01:34:26] Speaker B: game breaking glitches. Oh, shit. There's some severely game breaking glitches. Yes. [01:34:32] Speaker A: Let's hope those are good. Patched out. [01:34:34] Speaker B: They're not something you could ever encounter in regular gameplay, like what they're doing. I've watched the Speedrun. There is no way for a player to ever do by accident. [01:34:44] Speaker D: Is this like I'm going to turn around in place three times, jump twice, punch once? [01:34:49] Speaker B: No, this is like I'm going to save and quit and do menu glitches to duplicate files in weird ways that causes it to load dev files. [01:34:59] Speaker A: Okay. I want that gone. [01:35:01] Speaker D: Oh [01:35:01] Speaker A: my God. They've got [01:35:02] Speaker D: arbitrary code execution. [01:35:05] Speaker B: Yeah. In addition to that, there's glitches you can do with the like hook whip skill that I was talking about that allow people to just clip out of bounds and like fly through zones. There's all sorts of crazy shit that again, there is no way for a player to do by accident. These will never affect any casual player at all. [01:35:29] Speaker D: Okay, so is there any part of this game that connects to the Internet? [01:35:34] Speaker B: No, it's a fully like single player traditional video game. [01:35:38] Speaker D: Okay. Because like, I mean, you never know. Like, like, you know, they have like hooks for like DLC or whatever. Because it's like arbitrary code execution is a really big issue. Like that is. That is like, if there is any connection at all, you can. You can do some stuff. [01:35:54] Speaker B: Yep. [01:35:55] Speaker A: Well, that was. That was informative, oddly enough, on the topic of a serial killer. Oh, continue. Next. [01:36:03] Speaker B: Also, I just looked at the leaderboard, the no major glitches category. Apparently third place is a dude I know from the Super Metroid community. [01:36:09] Speaker A: That sounds reasonable. [01:36:11] Speaker B: I just wasn't expecting to see his name there. I'm like, wait, I know who that is. I've raided him before on Twitch. That's cool. [01:36:18] Speaker A: So I guess on the topic of Liv's serial killer discussion, I'm gonna take over because weirdly enough, that comes into one of the episodes of Babylon 5 I watched, which back in the ripper yeah. The actual Jack the Ripper shows up. He is abducted. No. No. Yeah. Babylon 5 takes place in 2258ish. 2258-2262. It's five years of time. [01:36:47] Speaker D: One [01:36:47] Speaker A: of the races found Jack the Ripper, abducted him and has time frozen him and have been using him to judge people for the last 500 years. [01:36:56] Speaker D: Okay, you need to explain that. What do you mean they're using him to judge people? [01:36:59] Speaker A: Essentially, one of the things about him, if you go into information about Jack the Ripper, is he thought he was doing God's work. I was right. I am just. Everything I am doing is for the betterment of the world. I am the chosen one who can see things. Correct? [01:37:14] Speaker D: Yeah. He believed that sex work was a sin and that by killing women and removing their reproductive organs, he was saving them. That's the. That's the theory, [01:37:24] Speaker A: yes. One of the insane races from Babylon 5. Not insane as in like psychotic insane as in like, they are just so far beyond that, a lot of their shit looks impossible. One of those races found him and went, you're fucking things up, but we can use you. And then they re educated him into going, you fucked up everything badly. This was not God's work. Essentially, you are not doing anything wrong. And through their re education, they sort of used him as you get to attempt to do this sort of judgment to make sure we don't have someone doing things for the wrong reason. Like you were. You're going to be the person who judges who we are using as one of our most vocal members. Because they don't talk a lot. Their words are actually like musical notes. And so they have to have everything translated. So they use him as a judgment. Like, this is the person that we will use to be the main player in our war. [01:38:37] Speaker D: How old is this episode? [01:38:40] Speaker A: 94. 95. [01:38:42] Speaker D: Okay. Because all I'm thinking of is that, like, one thing, like, was that Monsters versus Aliens, where the President's talking to aliens, he's got the keyboards like, [01:38:52] Speaker A: well older than that. Yeah. No, Babylon 5 was like 94 to 90. [01:39:00] Speaker B: 94 to 98. [01:39:01] Speaker A: 98. Yeah. It's. It's very, very good that that episode was spawned by that one. Speaking of serial killers. Yeah, that was the thing that happened. But I've gotten into well past that, past the first war and into another war. This might have the single most cohesive space battle ever made. It's a human fight with human responses to how war in space would be done, how tactics would go down what people would do the. Oh, God, no. Talking about too much gives away too much. This is very late season. So like the factions for the battle, there are two sides and how things were structured. Only some of the ships directly follow this one leader's regime, essentially, and the other people have not been a part of that regime. And they are going in to try and liberate this planet. And it's under guard by these people and how they politic this. Hey, I know that captain from that ship from when I was part of the Academy. I bet I can convince him to stand down because he was the person who taught me ethics. We're going to talk about this to him. So they directly open channels to discuss. They do proper flanking through space. This is the best space battle I have ever seen. It is amazing. [01:40:31] Speaker D: So when you say it's, like, realistic how space would space battles would go, like, how do you mean? Because I know multiple different people with multiple different. [01:40:41] Speaker A: So I'm not going to talk about the physics. That's not necessarily how it would be. But tactically, you're talking about you have jump points across. You have the ability to warp through space. So why wouldn't you have multiple flank angles that you're going through to try and draw forces around throughout a planet instead of just attacking from one direction? You have capital ships that are able to do their own space jumps, as opposed to just having to follow the one jump system that smaller ships aren't able to make their own. So that has to be guarded by a separate set of people. You have colonies that are only situated at certain parts of the planet. So you don't need to guard the whole planet, you need to guard the colony. There are like, certain things that are done within the space battle, and then there are. Well, space takes up a lot of space. So if we draw people out into one section, the other ones can't reinforce. So we can explicitly do half of this battle over here and have the other half have no effect on the battle apart from communication lines, because you can't hit them with something millions of miles. Well, it's thousands of miles away. [01:41:47] Speaker D: I mean, I was gonna say, like. Like, realistically, like, if we did not have, like. So if there's not some form of, like, rules of engagement thing, right? Like, for example, like, oh, you can't use, like, mustard gas. You can't use this. You can't. But like, in space, where it's like, realistically, like the person who first finds a way to predict a ship's movement from a Light year away. You know what [01:42:09] Speaker A: I [01:42:10] Speaker D: mean? Like, wars [01:42:10] Speaker A: are going to be lifetime. The amount of calculations. Yeah, it's going to be difficult, but they have. [01:42:16] Speaker D: I am going to fire this bullet and 100 years from now it will hit the guy that I'm aiming at. Like, that will functionally be what space will be. And you will not, you will never know that you're being attacked because you won't be alive for it. The great, great grandchildren you have on this ship will. [01:42:33] Speaker A: There is a rules of engagement nailed by a bullet. So like one of the things that is illegal across worlds is something called mass drivers. Because why use nukes when you can just throw a meteor at someone? [01:42:47] Speaker D: Yeah, like, that's what I'm talking about with railguns. If you have like railguns in space, that's like ridiculous. [01:42:52] Speaker A: So like, those are like, [01:42:53] Speaker D: that's what I'm talking about when I say like, [01:42:55] Speaker A: yes, those are internationally banned because [01:42:58] Speaker D: yeah, [01:42:59] Speaker A: using those devastates planets for hundreds of years [01:43:03] Speaker D: because like you, you fuck up, you fuck up the trajectory or you miss. Not only like, like are you gone? But like your bullet that you've shot out, that's missed, will now strike a planet and wipe out their version of the dinosaurs. [01:43:18] Speaker A: Outside of mass drivers, nothing has like projectiles. Most things have become energy based. So energy will dissipate as movement goes on. So most of those things [01:43:29] Speaker D: which would be what you would need [01:43:30] Speaker A: there, there are, there are scales of weaponry that are higher and lower. There's things that can go farther than others because they have better technology to focus light into actually like weaponized beam so that you can use it as a cutting weapon as opposed to just something that slams into a shield. There are no like, energy shields. It's very interesting. I like Babylon 5 a lot. I advise anyone to watch Babylon 5. It is one of the best political space shows ever. Season one's a little rough. [01:43:56] Speaker B: Season one's a lot rough. And even the like, relatively recent, like HD upscaling, they did the CG still does not look, [01:44:06] Speaker A: it's 94 CG. It's not great. But then you [01:44:10] Speaker D: get [01:44:11] Speaker A: maybe the best episode of television in its season finale is the best season finale of any show I've ever heard of ever. [01:44:18] Speaker D: We say it's not bad. What season of Doctor who not bad? Are we talking the very first season of Doctor who where an alien was a dude with a piece of toilet paper [01:44:30] Speaker A: on his head? Or are we talking like they have actual CG, but it's 90s CG. [01:44:35] Speaker D: Oh, [01:44:36] Speaker A: so all of [01:44:37] Speaker B: like wing commander type spaceships [01:44:44] Speaker D: like the first Hellraiser, [01:44:45] Speaker A: very early 3D [01:44:46] Speaker D: level [01:44:46] Speaker A: bath, very early 3D CG. [01:44:48] Speaker D: Okay. [01:44:48] Speaker B: Fortunately, most of the show does not rely on cg. It's really just the space portions where spaceship's flying around. The rest of the show is mostly practical effects and good costumes. [01:44:58] Speaker A: Fantastic costumes. Some of the best acting I've ever seen between a couple characters. Like brilliant acting even in some season one where things can get a little rough. [01:45:08] Speaker B: Also you mentioned Patrick Stewart, another Trek who died recently. [01:45:14] Speaker A: Ah, Walter Koenig. [01:45:16] Speaker B: Walter Koenig plays bester in Babylon 5. [01:45:20] Speaker A: Alfred Bester, his favorite role and [01:45:21] Speaker B: is easily the best acted character in the entire show. Like Bester is so [01:45:27] Speaker A: disagree because Lontho and g' Kar are both existing. But Walter Koenig's Bester is brilliant. [01:45:33] Speaker B: It's his best role he's ever done. And that's including the fact that he's literally one of the iconic members of the original Star Trek crew. [01:45:40] Speaker A: He has more lines in Babylon 5 than he does in Star Trek. He's not in every episode he's not in. Like he's not even in a third episode. He's not even in [01:45:50] Speaker B: most of the episodes. [01:45:51] Speaker A: I think he has a fair [01:45:52] Speaker B: few. [01:45:53] Speaker A: I think he has 10 episodes. He might have a little more. He has more lines in this than he did in the entirety of Star Trek. Walter Koenig, brilliant acting in Babylon 5 from him. Although continuing on the space thing, my other topic, because I've talked too much about Forever and I may tie in on the others, I'm getting into more Warhammer novels. So the Infinite, the Divine. I finished doing my reread because the other book came out. This is. If you know Nothing about Warhammer 40K, do not start Infinitely Divine. Get a little bit of a primer firsthand. But it is one of the best written books they have. The Wicked and the Warped is a direct sequel to that. So definitely get some primer and read the first one before going into the second. It has the single funniest intro I have ever seen in any 40k novelization anywhere. They are immortal living robots. That's what Necrons are. And so one of the first scenes is them fighting each other. One of their arms gets ripped off and they're robots. That doesn't matter too much. So his arm scrabbles across the ground, grabs onto the other person and starts whacking him in the face with its elbow. It's, it's, it's the best kind of Ridiculous comedy. This is a buddy cop. Essentially. It's a buddy cop movie with immortal robots. And it. The first one was set over a couple thousand years because they had that time frame. This does not have that much time. So they don't get to do things that are on that scale of time. But the characterization is already fantastic. If you want to get it as a book on tape, it's already out. So you can hear a very good rendition of the voice acting. It's quite good. The. The person who does the reading, I think it's. I think it's by Robert Rath, but he might be the voice actor. I'm not sure which one's which. Very, very good. So far. I can't talk about too much that goes down because that's just straight spoiling things. And this book is too new to spoil things. It's really, really good. Maybe it's not in my top five of all books because I've read some insane books, but, like, it has transcended just the 40k medium of quality of book and gone into like, oh, this is just a high quality book. I like this book quite a lot. But unlike a lot of other books, you need context for these ones that you can't just immediately go into. So if you're at all interested in 40k period, get a little bit of primer in. And then Infinite the Divine and then Wicked and the Warped are two of the best novels that have ever been written for it. They're fantastic. Pillow. You want to. You want to go with your. Your stuff now? [01:48:33] Speaker C: Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about wow forever. Been playing it. So all I've had going on is I've been playing some wow forever, and I'm not gonna get into it because we'll be here for another two hours talking about it. Another very important released game came out and I've been playing it, Ocarina of Time. I'm gonna leave it there. We'll have a big discussion on it next time. But it's amazing. And I cried. [01:48:59] Speaker B: Yeah, I have it and haven't started playing it yet. So we. We will be discussing that in two weeks. [01:49:06] Speaker A: My one question for you here, how does it feel? Like, does it feel different to play or does it evoke the same feel? [01:49:15] Speaker C: It feels how I looked at this game back then. [01:49:21] Speaker B: It feels like how you remembered it from your childhood, not, like how it feels to play the original now. [01:49:27] Speaker C: Yeah, exactly. [01:49:28] Speaker D: So just like, wow. Forever. [01:49:30] Speaker A: Forever. Okay. [01:49:32] Speaker C: Like, they did enough modern, they did enough modernization to it to keep it up to speed while keeping it Ocarina of time. [01:49:43] Speaker D: It patched out Link's arthritis in his knees. [01:49:46] Speaker C: Yes, he can jump now. [01:49:49] Speaker A: All right. Is there anything else you really want to get into? [01:49:53] Speaker C: No. Tomorrow is. At this point, it is November 8th. Tomorrow is my big move day. I've already been moving a bunch of small stuff and at my house. And tomorrow is all my big stuff. Couches, TV beds. And then tomorrow night, I should have my first night in the new place. Not sure if I'll have full access to Internet yet or not. Internet's supposed to come out tomorrow. I know, like, the Electricians still need to come and run some Ethernet to, like, the bottom room, so I won't have direct access to plug in, but I'll have. Should have wi fi tomorrow. [01:50:35] Speaker A: All right, let's hope you can join us for our next episode, because we've got. [01:50:39] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, [01:50:40] Speaker A: you'll have to hear [01:50:41] Speaker C: the [01:50:41] Speaker A: next episode of 8bit, but let's hope you're here for four words. [01:50:45] Speaker C: Oh, yeah, if I am, it'll be on Discord with awful audio. But we'll see. [01:50:52] Speaker A: We'll see. All right, Liv, what have you been up to besides wow forever? Or has it just been. [01:50:58] Speaker D: I played a bit of Overwatch while I was waiting for, like. Like, not queue times, like, downtime and wow. They. They're doing actually interesting things, like the. Like, competitively, Overwatch is still an absolute mess, but their new heal is really good. He is a Zimbabwean vampire guy, and he's got a really interesting kit where it's all about buffing opponents and, like, draining life from opponents. It actually plays really, really well. But, like, once again, it's like the simplest thing of just. It is a really good character. Unfortunately, it is in Overwatch. [01:51:41] Speaker A: Okay. I have not played Overwatch since. Oh, I did not play Overwatch 2. So, [01:51:48] Speaker D: yeah, that's entirely valid. [01:51:50] Speaker A: The last time I played Overwatch was the single player event with Blackwatch. I think that was it. [01:51:59] Speaker D: Yeah, no, it was with. That was with Blackwatch the [01:52:04] Speaker A: Back when [01:52:05] Speaker D: Ripperwatch. Yeah, I think that was. That was it. Yeah. The main issue with Overwatch right now is that it doesn't feel like it knows entirely what it wants to do in that. So they keep moving things around. Like, Sombra is a. Is a healer now, right? Yeah. So, like, there's like, just the big. Like, this entire role is now gone. Like, for Flankers, you have Reaper, other characters that have come out since to fulfill Reaper's role, and Tracer. But the whole thing of like sneaking around and disrupted. There's no such thing as a disruptor anymore, right? So that is entirely gone. And then they've got like a perk system where, like, as you play through a match and you do better, your character can unlock perks. The problem is, though, is that, like, some of those perks are really, really good and are like, basically mandatory. Like, Zenyatta can, for his first perk, gains the ability to levitate over gaps and stuff, which is really, really good. Like, if you know Zenyatta, like, he can. His right click can delete most of the cast. And like, him being able to float around corners, shoot off his right click and then float back, he can just delete your healer on certain maps just by hovering over a void. And that's basically mandatory. But then you have like, other perks for other characters that are like, worthless, and you might as well not have them. Like Symmetra, who is one of my main DPS's. Her first perk is either you get one more turret, which useless. The turrets die in one hit. For most of the cast, they're mostly there for harassment. Having one more is irrelevant. Or you can increase the range on her primary fire by like 10 yards. So, like, kind of useless. Like, you know, like there's nothing. And then like, her second tier of perks, she could either get her old, like, shield that she could throw in front of her, or when she's near her teleporter, she regens shields by 20 every, every, like, I think five seconds. So like, Symmetra's perks are fucking worthless, right? So you might as well, like, not have her give her any. And then you have other characters who. Their perks are like, basically like, you take this, otherwise you are not playing the game right? Like, like. Like Zenyatta's float Ash gains the ability to detonate her dynamite remotely without shooting it. And then her other perk is that she. If the dynamite explodes midair, it does more damage and has a wider range. So, like, why would you not pick that? And like, the entire game is like that. The entire cast is just like, either perks mean nothing or perks make the character, like, really, really, really good. And the game doesn't really know what to do with that. And at the same time, you have the thing of. Well, like, some characters just straight get counted by others. So like, if you're level two and your opponent switches to a character that counters yours, or they've already been playing it, it's just that you're starting to hit the point where you're getting countered well when you switch, you're back to level one on that other character, meaning you're behind. It'd be like, in, like, League of Legends [01:55:25] Speaker A: anymore for half the cast. [01:55:27] Speaker D: Yeah. There's no point. It'd be like in League of Legends if you just had to switch characters, like, midway through and, like, you're level one, and, like, everyone else is, like, level. I don't know what the cap in League of legends [01:55:36] Speaker A: is, [01:55:36] Speaker D: like, 10, 18. Yeah. So being like, a level one, level one League of Legends character coming in, like, midway through play it, it is. It is ridiculous. The game does not seem to know what it wants to do, which sucks, because Overwatch is a lot of fun. I have fun playing it, but I could. But I know it's a bad game, but that's what I've been playing other than wow forever. So, like, it's just been this massive swing of, like, wow. This game is really good to WoW. This game used to be fun, like, a decade ago. Fuck. [01:56:07] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay, well, obviously you've been doing a lot of wow forever, and we've talked ad nauseam about na forever. [01:56:13] Speaker D: Yeah. [01:56:13] Speaker A: So I think. [01:56:14] Speaker D: Yes. I'm not gonna bring any more of it. [01:56:16] Speaker A: I think we'll give Jax his final say. [01:56:18] Speaker B: Okay, so, listeners, I'm gonna talk about Persona 3. If you don't want to be spoiled on Persona 3, this is where the episode ends for you. That's why we're saving it for last, so that those of you who want to avoid being spoiled on this game can just stop without having to be exposed to it. Okay. I have literally been playing Persona 3 since before we started this podcast. That's how long it took me to get to the end. [01:56:44] Speaker A: It's a big. It's a big fucking game. [01:56:47] Speaker B: My file says, like, 70 hours of gameplay, like 67 hours or something like that. But I played on Maniac difficulty. There were a lot of game overs throughout because Persona 3 is really unforgiving with the random one hit kills, especially on Maniac difficulty. There have been so many deaths where it's just. Oh, they just. One hit killed my protagonist, and the game is now over. Well, fuck. I did make sure to get AIGI's social link all the way up because AIGI's is best girl, and anyone who says otherwise is just wrong, as evidenced by the lack of objections to that. [01:57:31] Speaker A: It's been long enough. I don't actively remember them all. [01:57:34] Speaker D: No, I mean, I very much agree. I just is, like, the best one. [01:57:38] Speaker B: So. [01:57:39] Speaker D: Yeah. One, two, three. [01:57:41] Speaker B: So [01:57:41] Speaker D: I. So I played Persona 3 Portable back in 2018, and it took me 24 streams of about two hours each. So it took me 48 hours roughly to beat. [01:58:00] Speaker B: Fair enough. I took a little longer. I [01:58:03] Speaker D: mean, I also don't 100%. So, yeah, that game is long as shit. [01:58:06] Speaker B: I did not go for any kind of, like, completionist anything. I think there's a, like, secret boss if you do the bonus dungeon and some other shit. I did not do that. It was too much grinding. I lost interest and I was like, I'm just gonna finish this game. Because if I try to do this grinding stuff, that is not really hitting for me. I'm just never gonna finish the game. [01:58:27] Speaker A: I'm fairly certain you're right. But the last time I played this game was 2007 or 2008 something. It's. I played one of the original versions of the game. It's been a long time since I played. [01:58:37] Speaker B: Okay, yeah, you can fight Elizabeth in Persona 3. So, yeah, I did not do that. That is not something that I was interested in doing, dealing with at all. I did not actually have social links maxed out with most of the rest of sees. Like, I think the only other party member I had a maxed out social link on was Koromaru. Because of course I did. Because Koromaru's the best. Okay, I'm sorry. No. I am a sucker for Tales of Vesperia. It is my favorite Tales game. So I am automatically a sucker for any dog that fights with a knife. [01:59:16] Speaker A: He's a good boy. He is one of the best. He is [01:59:18] Speaker B: a good boy. [01:59:19] Speaker D: I think he's dead by now in the canon, though. [01:59:21] Speaker A: I mean, it's been more than 10 years. So. Yes, [01:59:24] Speaker B: he's a dog. [01:59:25] Speaker A: He's still a [01:59:26] Speaker B: dog. He should be. Dogs don't live that long, unfortunately. [01:59:30] Speaker A: And Persona's characters do not gain sudden immortality because they're. [01:59:35] Speaker B: I. It was very obvious, well before I reached the ending that my protagonist was going to die. I don't really like the way they went about portraying that. I don't like the. You go through the final boss, use the great ceiling and seal the seal, Nyx away. And then you go and, like, are tired for two months and finish out the school year. And then I liked that I got to die in aigi's lap. But, like. [02:00:08] Speaker A: So [02:00:09] Speaker B: it felt like it lacked some of the impact compared to if the epilogue had been the other party members, like, trying to finish out the school year without you. [02:00:20] Speaker A: So [02:00:20] Speaker D: you want to do What? You want to hear the worst part, though? [02:00:23] Speaker B: Go ahead. [02:00:24] Speaker D: If you're playing as Minako, the female MC is even worse because the canon relationship with her is the guy who fights with the stop sign. [02:00:36] Speaker B: Stop sign. [02:00:37] Speaker D: I forgot his fucking name. Akihiko's friend. He gets shot by Shinji. Shinji? Yeah, Shinji's the canon relationship for her. [02:00:47] Speaker A: If you go [02:00:47] Speaker D: through. Yeah, so if you go through the game and you romance him, Right. He survives the bullet because during, you give him something as part of the romance scene, and he carries it in his chest pocket. [02:01:01] Speaker B: Okay. So [02:01:02] Speaker D: you [02:01:03] Speaker B: can save him. [02:01:04] Speaker D: You can save him if you romance him. Yeah, because you give him something, and he always carries it and it absorbs the bullet. [02:01:11] Speaker B: Okay. [02:01:12] Speaker D: I think it's like you give him, like, a watch or something. I'm not sure. [02:01:14] Speaker B: That explains why I kept finding axe weapons throughout the rest of the game. [02:01:18] Speaker D: Yeah. And he wakes up in hospital just in time to watch you die. [02:01:26] Speaker B: Jesus. [02:01:27] Speaker D: And it is so rough because Mitako's default Persona, because Minato's is Orpheus. And then Minakos is so Orpheus from the Greek myth. His wife in the underworld who winds up [02:01:46] Speaker A: the person who he's chasing. [02:01:47] Speaker D: He fucks up and she winds up. Yeah. So it's even more obvious that Minako's gonna die. But, like, then it's just like, not only does Mitako die, but Shinji fulfills the role as Orpheus. Because, like, he finally, like, he gets up, he comes to see you, and you are just gone. Like, you don't even get to see him walk into the scene. You hear him come up and be like, minako, are you here? And, like, fucking, like, right as, like, she's, like, gone. Like, it's so fucking sad. I was so, like, that fucked with me so bad because. Because you know, that man took a header off that school fucking roof at some point. I'm sorry, there is no way. Because if that was me, if that was me, my boyfriend fucking just woke up from a coma just in time to watch me. Sorry, I woke up from a coma just in time to watch him die. I'd be like, no, I'm going off the edge. I'm going off the fucking edge. That's not fair. [02:02:47] Speaker A: So to put a little context into this for other people, Personas, this game is already immediately psychological. One of the first scenes that happens in the game is literally in the cutscene. Before you get to play anything is one of the main characters struggling in the bathroom. Because the way to summon your Personas is the Special guns that you have to shoot yourself in the head with. [02:03:14] Speaker B: Yep. My wife literally has been referring to Persona as. Oh, is that game where the teenagers shoot themselves? [02:03:21] Speaker A: Yeah. And this is the reason why I hold Persona 3 above 4 and 5, where 4 replaced this gun with a set of glasses that you put on. And like, I can't. That diminishes so much about the extra effect that this has on those characters. [02:03:42] Speaker D: Well, that's because each version of each. Each game explores a different aspect of Jungian psychology. So like. And like. So Persona 1, I think they could just summon them like they can in Shin Megami Tensei. And then like, I think two as well. Three is where they get like. Because they're all exploring like different parts of the psyche and shit like that and the collective unconscious. Persona three is facing death. Persona four is seeing basically skepticism, I guess, seeing the world as it really is. Persona 5 is rebellion. Each one is representative. [02:04:20] Speaker A: Right. Did you play four? [02:04:23] Speaker D: I do. [02:04:24] Speaker A: Did you play [02:04:24] Speaker D: four? I did play four yet. [02:04:25] Speaker A: Okay. Jax, you have not played four yet. [02:04:27] Speaker B: I have not touched four or five yet. That's [02:04:30] Speaker D: why I didn't say anything more detailed than that. But this is a game series that is a spin off of a JRPG based around Gnosticism that delves into Jungian psychology. Some things are gonna hit harder than others. That's just really what it is. [02:04:48] Speaker B: Gnosticism is not all bangers is a spin off of Shin Megami Tensei. [02:04:52] Speaker A: It's also because this takes place in essentially modern day Japan. Well, each one of them takes place in the current modern day Japan [02:05:01] Speaker B: is [02:05:02] Speaker D: like a post apocalypse, I think. Right. I have not played it all. I know it like. All I know is what I've been told. [02:05:07] Speaker B: I don't know. My understanding is even more dungeon crawlery than Persona is. And Persona was pretty dungeon crawlery. [02:05:14] Speaker D: Yeah. I've been told I would enjoy it based on like the Gnosticism because I. Hi. I have like half a degree in anthropology. But like. But like I. The dungeon crawly part was like, I really like learning about Gnostic. Woo woo. On the other hand, I don't want to crawl through dungeons for like 20 minutes. Like 20 minutes. 20 hours. [02:05:35] Speaker B: Yeah. The dungeon crawling was definitely the weakest part of Persona 3 for me. The dungeons are just. There's not enough variety for the procedural generated dungeon floors to actually be interesting. So it's just very grindy. You're just fighting the same enemies, going through the same tiles for literally 264 floors. [02:05:59] Speaker D: Oh, no, [02:06:00] Speaker B: I don't know. I had fun. I probably will never play it again because it is just way fucking long. And I have other games to play. [02:06:08] Speaker A: This is one of those games where unless you are a person who is intending to do 100% later on, you play it once and you have your memories from that game. [02:06:19] Speaker B: Yeah, [02:06:20] Speaker D: it's. It's why I hate that they don't release the game in a finish date. [02:06:25] Speaker B: It's so annoying that the only way to play female protagonist is to play play Persona 3 Portable. But Persona 3 Portable, you don't get [02:06:32] Speaker D: the whole story [02:06:33] Speaker B: does not have the epilogue story that was added in Persona 3 fest that I think is in the remake now. [02:06:42] Speaker A: I think the remake is fest. Yes. [02:06:44] Speaker B: I think the remake has all the fest content, but it doesn't have the female protagonist. And also Persona 3's music is incredible. [02:06:56] Speaker A: Just from the trailer, you will understand that this music is fire. [02:07:01] Speaker B: This music is some of the best music in video games. You have heard. I have heard so many Persona 3 songs in like YouTube videos and other media because they're just so good that everyone wants to use them before I ever played the game and then I played the game and I'm like, I've heard this before. What? But also, it's a banger. Everything's banger. The fucking like music that plays just while they're in school is a banger. And the musical change when you get to the like, final chapter where you're like preparing to fight death, sets the mood so. Well, I will say the actual boss fight of fighting death was boring. Boring as fuck. It literally took me like 30 minutes and I was never in any danger. [02:07:50] Speaker A: Ah, so you mean the. The like mid 2000s JRPG power. [02:07:56] Speaker B: Most of them aren't like that. It's just. It was just so many phases and he never did anything that was even vaguely threatening. The actual hardest boss that I fought in the entire game was some random floor boss who, if I put up a spell to reflect his magic, would just spam the non elemental nuke on my whole party every turn. And if I didn't, he would spam elemental nukes on my whole party, which would always hit someone's weakness and give him an extra turn. And that was the actual hardest boss in the game for me. [02:08:35] Speaker D: Don't forget that death is also kind of rapey. [02:08:38] Speaker B: Yes. However, I specifically went into that fight with the. The item that just uses the 9,9999 damage hit so that I could access the bonus dungeon. I literally. Yeah. Wait. [02:08:51] Speaker D: When yeah. When? Before you know he's death. If you're playing as Minako, I do not know if he does if you're playing as Minato, but if you're playing as Vitako, he like tries to hit on you. And like by that point you most likely have your romance path setted. And it feels really rapey. Especially because I romance Shinji, right? Because I was like, oh, I want to see what the canon ending is. Like if I'm already getting fucked out of like the extra content after, like, I might as well get like the canon end. And I'm just like. As far as I'm aware, my boyfriend just died and now like, you're. Ooh, it's gross. Icky. [02:09:26] Speaker B: Okay, hear me out though. It pisses me off that there's no same sex romance options. The closest you get is Aigi's. [02:09:36] Speaker A: This is old Japan times. And this is 20 years ago. [02:09:42] Speaker B: I'm old. [02:09:43] Speaker D: I mean, they [02:09:43] Speaker B: still don't have same [02:09:44] Speaker D: sex. [02:09:45] Speaker B: It's Persona. It feels like the series that should have that [02:09:52] Speaker D: Persona 5 Royal doesn't even have. You mean to tell me that Ryuji and Ren would not. Look, there is some serious homoeroticism between those two and you need to tell me I can't act on it. Fuck off. [02:10:10] Speaker A: So it gets. At [02:10:12] Speaker B: least AIGI's is an option for both protagonists. So I just had to wait until the very end of the game to have a romance option. [02:10:20] Speaker A: It gets very. [02:10:21] Speaker D: Oh yeah. And then they fucking straight washed the fucking gay guy in four. [02:10:25] Speaker A: What? No, depends on. [02:10:29] Speaker D: I still hold to the fact that he is gay and the other character is a trans man and they fucking make them rep. I hate that shit. [02:10:37] Speaker A: Okay, we're going into [02:10:40] Speaker D: maybe this is [02:10:41] Speaker A: just [02:10:41] Speaker D: like once again, Jungian psychology. It's all perspectives. [02:10:46] Speaker A: A bit of perspective there. That character's sexuality is a core part of his storyline and how that goes down in that character in four. I could not remember if he was in three or four. Thank you for clarifying. He's in four. [02:10:58] Speaker D: He was in four. [02:10:58] Speaker A: Yeah, but both of those characters, now that I think about it, are in four. Those two characters explore sexuality better than any other JRPG I can think of. And they don't really go into any form of like where you would think modern day sexuality goes. This is like. [02:11:18] Speaker D: Yeah, but like [02:11:19] Speaker A: the. The most basic friends and the most basic of. Of gay in really gaming, it's not talked about much. [02:11:28] Speaker D: It's. Yeah, but it's also like frustrating. It's like they explore it right but then at the end they go like, you know what? I'm just gonna do what society expects me to do and I'll be. And like, we'll just be a straight couple. But it's like, I feel like it would have been a lot bigger of a thing if, like, it's just like a gay man and his trans man boyfriend. Like, that would have been like, there is. That would have hit so much harder. And it would have been more of a thing of like, yeah, you don't fit in with small town Japan, but you don't have to. You can like. [02:12:02] Speaker A: But also, these are still teenagers. And I understand that's not like a huge. That there's lines that are there that are a little bit of kind of confusion in that this is teenagers. [02:12:12] Speaker D: I don't know how Japan [02:12:13] Speaker A: is very conservative with teenagers with kids, despite the fact that there are things with sexual inter. [02:12:20] Speaker D: Like one of them, like can legally carry a gun. You know, Like. You know what I mean? Like, it's ridiculous. [02:12:28] Speaker A: Japan is weird. [02:12:29] Speaker D: Japan's weird. [02:12:30] Speaker B: Yeah, Japan's weird. I think that's where we end it for [02:12:32] Speaker A: that. Japan. Yeah. Is this our title? Japan is weird. You have to go through the entire episode to get there. It makes no sense for the rest of the wow context, but [02:12:43] Speaker D: apparently wow Forever is like not doing well in Japan. But then again, [02:12:48] Speaker B: WoW never [02:12:49] Speaker D: really [02:12:49] Speaker B: does. Japanese online RPG play is so heavily the specific type of gacha games that are popular in Asia that I can imagine they just would not even consider wow Forever. [02:13:05] Speaker D: They've added more hooks for controller support too. So you can't say Blizzard didn't try because most Japanese MMOs are controller driven. [02:13:14] Speaker A: I've never tried the controller thing. I know they have some controller support, but no idea. [02:13:19] Speaker D: I've messed around with it because I broke my wrist a couple years ago and I still get really stiff. So I have played well on Controller Forever. Feels a lot better than because retail you need sounds to make it work. How [02:13:36] Speaker B: does it play with your OG Steam controller? [02:13:39] Speaker D: The Relic? It does not hook. Why did they discontinue it? It was so good. [02:13:47] Speaker B: You're the only person I know who liked it. [02:13:50] Speaker A: Well, [02:13:51] Speaker D: it sucks because the further we go on, the less support it has, so the worse it performs. But you get a game that came out at the same time that has the proper support and it plays like an absolute fucking dream. So. Okay. Not fair. [02:14:09] Speaker A: Well, on that note, I think it's time for us to close out the episode. It's been such a [02:14:14] Speaker B: long one. [02:14:15] Speaker A: We're going back to, like, the first episode where we're on for two and a half hours. [02:14:20] Speaker D: I'm sorry. I feel like it's my fault. [02:14:21] Speaker A: No, we've got on tangents. I did nothing to try and curb the timeframe. [02:14:25] Speaker B: We knew it was gonna be like this. That's one of the reasons I wanted to bring you on on this episode, because I knew this topic was going to go long and it was a perfect topic to have you on. [02:14:37] Speaker A: It is a good week to not have done much else. [02:14:40] Speaker B: Listeners, seriously, go give Liv a follow at Twitch tv. Livethecyberdolle. She's awesome. [02:14:46] Speaker A: It is spelled Liv, the Cyber D hole. [02:14:49] Speaker B: Yes, the link will be in the episode description. [02:14:54] Speaker A: But on that note, for myself, for Jax, for Pilipa, and for Liv. Good night, everybody. [02:15:00] Speaker B: Bye bye. Good [02:15:00] Speaker D: night. I hit the hooray.